Actually, you can pug raids in classic because it’s so EASY. I know. I’ve done it.
I guess I’ve yet to see evidence that a small QoL change (for instance, Bulk mailing is a thing in Classic, where it wasn’t in Vanilla) has any bearing on a bigger change (Arenas/Battle Pets/Transmogs/etc.) being put into the game. For a SSA to be a logically sound argument, a chain of if a->b, if b->c, if c->d, if d->retail sucks has to be established and I’ve yet to see that argument made effectively. The way I’ve seen the SSA used in these threads has been “If A->B,D,Q,$,C,R,U , in some nebulous order, might happen!”.
In a community like WoW, players make suggestions for changes (some good, some bad) constantly. Only a small fraction of these are ever considered for patch content and the percentage of the people b1tching on the forums hasn’t really correlated with community suggestions that were implemented. Case in point: Resto Druids were stupidly, unbelievably broken in PvP throughout TBC. This fact was very rarely disputed on the forums from Season 2-> WoTLK patch and was actually kind of a meme because of how obvious it was. Despite the forum community’s views on the matter, and despite other changes that players clamored for, they stayed OP as can be until the end of the expansion. It would’ve satisfied a huge portion of the WoW population to make a heavy handed nerf- never happened.
Now if the argument is that nothing should change about Classic because any change from Vanilla is inherently a bad change, I guess that’s a different argument and possibly doesn’t constitute a slippery slope fallacy. I don’t agree with it but think it falls more under a pure false dichotomy (Vanilla was all good and any change is all bad/It’s either pure Vanilla or not Vanilla). Vanilla was a continuum and saw its own history of balance changes and patches, yet it was 15 years before we arrived at Retail. My guess is that every person making the slippery slope or no changes argument, in this case, has a different definition of what the best version of Vanilla was and where the point of no return for WoW was, which is kind of ironic because each person making that argument thinks they are making the same argument as other people slapping #nochanges on their post, yet likely have different, indefinite definitions of where the slope was too slippery or Vanilla stops being Vanilla.
I dont believe you cant understand words.
No, you don’t.
You can look at each one individually and weigh the merits based on that. You’re using the slippery slope fallacy to reject all changes because if you allow one, you must allow them all.
This is logically flawed and incorrect. There’s a reason it’s an extremely well documented concept. But hey, just because everybody is telling you this doesn’t mean it’s true. Stick to your guns and throw overwhelming research and evidence aside!
You need to understand. It’s ok to disagree with something. It’s not to like it. I am not offended that you and I have differing opinions. You just need to strip the logical fallacies from your arguments and proceed with reasoned, well thought out arguments.
I mean, realistically, if you give people a guild bank then you must also give them barbers makes no sense. To many folks that’s not even an argument. To many folks that just sounds great! Ok, I’ll take both please!
Consider another approach…
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I don’t think guild banks should be implemented because bag space is at a premium and that lends weight to the classic fantasy. Guild banks in their current implementation offer significantly higher storage capacity than your average player. While inconvenient, scarcity of storage space is part of what gives classic it’s niche charm…
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I don’t think barbers should be added to classic. Your character’s individual appearance is part of the character fantasy and being able to change that at whim takes away from that fantasy.
See? Those two arguments attack the change itself and present valid reasons for why someone might not like those changes. Additionally though, it opens a dialog of discussion between people for a change and against it. Is there some possible compromise that might alleviate the problems with the proposed change?
Consider these words.
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I usually support the #nochanges side.
Not because I think Retail is so bad. But because I believe Classic is best as a emulation of vanilla, not a Classic+. Personally any effort that would go into making a Classic+ I would rather see go into Retail (to make it more classic-like) or a new project or a WoW 2.0.
Classic should be a vanilla emulator.
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When we eventually get a TBC server, I will transfer all my characters to said TBC server … and I’ll still think implementing Achievements to a TBC-only server will be a positive addition.
"HUR DUR DUR IF ACHIEVEMENTS WERE SO GREAT THEY WOULD HAVE EXISTED IN TBC WHEN TBC WAS A THING JEDDITE HUR HUR HUR U THINK U DID BUT CLEARLY U DIDNT" theatrics nonwithstanding
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Case in point: Resto Druids were stupidly, unbelievably broken in PvP throughout TBC. This fact was very rarely disputed on the forums from Season 2-> WoTLK patch and was actually kind of a meme because of how obvious it was.
^— this is the other reason I want a TBC server. Oh man, those days as a Restoration Druid cant come soon enough
You can never appease the gimme gimmes or the I want crowd. They are so far gone this point they think free money is a good thing.
I’m excited to run laps around Blade’s Edge Arena aka Cheetah Play Enclosure.
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If that is the only way for Blizzard to get the mailing to work fine.
Now if you add a Barber to the game than it is not Classic.
When Classic is not Classic than vanilla will become abandon ware.
So go ahead add the barber shop. Once vanilla becomes abandon ware I will start my own private vanilla server. Blizzard can not shut me down due to Vanilla being abandoned by Blizzard.
That is why Ion said Classic will stay even if the servers are a ghost town.
So go ahead and keep pushing for changes so I can make money off of abandon ware.
Why do you think Warcraft 3 is as far back as Blizzard can go.
Warcraft and Warcraft 2 are abandon ware and yes another company has those two for you to buy and play. Blizzard lost out on those two.
I did buy and I still play them.
If you cut your hair, you aren’t you any more and I get to have your stuff.
Its just like in any games forums out there, the minority are the loudest most obnoxious side. In this case, it’s the #nochanges crowd. If you notice the posts, its the same 15 people posting in every post.
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If any changes are made to Classic, TBC or any other expac than the original Classic, TBC or any expac will become abandon ware.
Once that happens I can start my own Classic, TBC or any expac private server. Blizzard can not take me to court and have me shut down I am running abandon ware.
So do you really think Blizzard is going to let any part of World of Warcraft become abandon ware?
Why do you think Blizzard only went back to Warcraft 3 and not back to Warcraft?
Warcraft and Warcraft 2 are abandon ware and another company has made them work on windows 10 and offer you to download and play.
Blizzard can not stop them.
So go ahead with your push to change Classic. I would love to see it go to abandon ware.
Remember once you change Classic it is no longer Classic.
You clearly missed the part where people are saying “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL” as a wiggle room to drag Classic through the mud. To make Classic from being less “Vanilla-like”. 'Cause “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL.”
See? We should add more changes because “the majority” want them, and let’s just kill Classic 'cause screw the “minority”.
While we’re on the subject, I’d also choke a guh-nome* for Behsten and Slahtz to exist in classic. The ability to disable experience gain would allow me to satisfy all my completionist compulsions. Disable experience gain at Levels 29, 39, 49 and complete all possible quests/instance runs, then reenable experience gain and move onto the next 10 levels.
Makes life for my tradeskill twink/bank alts so much easier, too. <3
- so many guh-nomes
I know by adding to Classic it is no longer Classic and it will become abandon ware.
Maybe that is why you want to change Classic. So people will go back to your private server.
Abandonware isn’t an accepted part of copyright doctrine here in the US, so I’m really not sure why you are bringing it up.
I believe what he is meaning to say is that if we allow any noticeable changes into Classic then it opens the doors for the rest to be up for debate. The more and more we add features, QoL, and addon inspired changes to Classic the more it becomes something than what it originally was. It affects not only the game but the social aspects of the game itself. This was the whole reason why Ion referred to it as opening pandoras box. It deviates away from what people remember and it also makes some players feel it’s not authentic or how the game was originally. It pretty much becomes a Classic+.
Ion Hazzikostas: When it comes to authenticity, thats not just about weapon skill, crit, and crushing blows and all that. It’s also about the community, its about the social dynamics that are apart of what define WoW Classic. We understand that is a key part of the experience and anything that might threaten or undermine those dynamics is something we need to be very suspect about and again use authenticity as our guide. Even if it might seem minor at a glance, those small changes could have large ripple effects that would change the way players relate it to the world and to each other.
So, players can take any noticeable change and relate it to “Oh, this not what I remember back then in 2006” and will take it being as not authentic or anything like how it was back then. Yes, there have been some very minor changes already but those changes either had to be made or are so minor that they are insignificant. Doing any more is not a wise decision and can be detrimental to how the players and the community remember Vanilla WoW. It may even make those very players go back to the private servers which is what I would hate to see when more and more changes are requested from these very forums. We fought hard to play Vanilla WoW in an official way which is why we are fighting even harder for the very authenticity of Classic that is suppose to mirror Vanilla in every way. Id hate for it to be all for a Classic+ and not what we all remember. The good, the bad, and the non existent.
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People who want changes because the game launched with some changes, are the ones who trolling.
No changes means no changes after the game is launched.
It’s very simple, but you pretend not to get it because you’re trolling.
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There have already been changes since the game was launched.
Example: Dungeons were hotfixed so the leader could reset them while people were still inside.
That was within the last week.
Go play retail. Thanks.
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