#nochanges You Think You Did, but You Didn't

[Holymirax-ashkandi]

Ive seen what happens when blizzard adds options. Its followed shortly by removal of other ones.
Remember when they added a toggle to use new or old character models? Gone.
Personal loot was added. Now its only personal loot.
No thanks.

I have little faith in blizzard or this community to do hypothetical changes right.

and ive got 15 years of evidence

[Flocket-mankrik]

Your logic is flawed. You’re calling it steam rolling but not one of those changes is linked to the other. There is no relationship that can be attributed between them, yet you are drawing one. You are also drawing the conclusion that, were even one of those proposed suggestions implemented, they all must be implemented. This too is faulty logic.

Here we go, again.

It’s not flawed because all changes are linked together. Give one person one change, you gotta implement the rest of them.

See how quickly all four of those changes stockpiled with the reason “doesn’t effect the game”? The four of them, combined takes away from the point of Classic, to begin with. Rendering my point, correct that people (#notall) think they want the Classic life but really don’t 'cause they like features of Retail to be added to it, to make it “easier” for them. You can’t argue that.

We have the benefit of 15 years of knowledge and progress on our side. If Blizzard were to decide to make changes and build on top of classic, we have a better understanding of the impact of those changes. We know that adding flying to the game has a significant impact on how people perceive the world. We know that a guild bank doesn’t really change how people play the game. In this hypothetical world where classic were to be changed, there is knowledge with which to make informed decisions on which changes would be beneficial, and which changes might have a more negative impact.

Yes, we do have history on our side, and you still haven’t learned your lesson. All of the changes impact the authenticity of Classic.

It’s ok to not like a change, but you should have a better reason for not liking it than simply because it is a change. Everybody is welcome to their opinion, but hate for the sake of hate is something to be discouraged.

I am discussing it. You just don’t like the answer.

Not really it was most likely the numbers they saw in the PSers. People ask for vanilla since TBC

Still, they had numbers to see how many actually want Classic.

Don’t bother, friend. I’ve pointed out the slippery slope argument being made multiple times and was completely ignored.

Not ignored. I asked you several times how it’s flawed. You dimply ignored it.

Hey, yeah – I still think Achievements would be a positive addition to Classic.

And this is the same mentality that’s going to destroy Classic. You thought you did, but you didn’t. You like the achievement system. Those didn’t even come out until Wrath and hurts the point the Classic.

Okay, yeah – calm down.

Because people will use your same mentality as those “being great additions to WoW”. It steamrolls.

So you should get Vanilla (Classic isn’t Vanilla) and anyone who wants any sort of QoL should kick rocks?

Again, you’re using the “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL” argument to justify adding more changes. And yes, those who want changes should kick rocks. I mean, that’s kind of what they’re telling me every time they say “well, changes already happened, LOL”.

Have a quote on that? Classic is built on a Legion client ffs. It can and never will be close to Vanilla. We are playing on a pre-TBC patch, on a client with messed up spell batching, and with time gated content.

Literally, when it was first announced. The point of Classic is to provide an authentic Vanilla Server, for World if Warcraft. Again with the “there’s already changes, LOL” argument. Doesn’t mean we should continue applying more changes to it.

Some players’ wishes. Many of us are just here because it’s better than retail and would rather be playing WoTLK or TBC. Oddly enough, you bring up compromise but are unwilling to do so yourself.

Then Classic is not for you. Classic is for Vanilla. Not TBC. Not Wrath. Not Cata. Not MoP. Not WoD. Not Legion. Not BFA. This is exactly what I mean, you don’t want Classic. You want certain non-Vanilla features to cater to your TBC/Wrath needs. Which is fine, but let’s not use Classic, to do it.

Ah, yes. The joy of healers being unable to kill mobs and having to spend 100g a weak to play the game as a baseline. What joyous quality of life. I’m not even a healer and I can appreciate how screwed up that is. The joy of being unable to change your characters appearance- because that ruins the game sooooo much for everyone else. I’m honestly not someone who really gives a damn about aesthetics (I’m playing dwarf, ffs), but the fact that there’s so much push back against that kind of addition to the game is mind boggling. The argument comes across as “No! You can’t have fun that won’t impact me in any way! Why? Because that’s not VANILLA.”

Because it’s not Vanilla. That’s a Cata or MoP feature? Still holds my statement true.
The inability to do certain things in Classic hinders certain individuals because they’re so used to having access to those features. They can’t seem to handle the game without the Barbershop, Achievements, Personal Loot, Guild Banks, etc. Meaning, this Game is not meant for you, if you can’t live without certain features.

Making my point still correct, you thought you did, but you didn’t.

Scroll up about 50 posts and read down to where I dismantle why the Slippery Slope argument is entirely fallacious here. Nothing “proves” a slippery slope unless you can link every change, from Vanilla-> A definite point at which quality of life changes are too much, and define how there is a causal relationship between each and every one. At that point, it ceases to be a slippery slope and becomes a concrete argument. Until then, it’s just a form of fear mongering. That’s why most of us have stopped even engaging the #nochanges crowd. It’s an entitled argument that generally devolves quickly to relying on one of the most well examined fallacious arguments in history and it’s pretty facepalm inducing to get it multiple times, in the same thread, from different individuals.

No, you have not. You insulted me for an hour. People called you out on it, when we finally got to a discussion, you didn’t explain the how and went MIA then began repeating yourself.

I’m not using the mess that is Classic’s client to justify any changes. I’m using it to defeat the argument that Blizzard is really trying to replicate Vanilla. They could’ve built Classic on a modified Vanilla client…but they didn’t. Why? Because they really don’t care if Classic is an exact clone of Vanilla.

It’s the same thing. “LOL it’s not Vanilla”, so this is an open door for people to drag Classic through the mud because “LOL, it’s not Vanilla”. As if we can’t try to keep it that way.

As far as respecs go, I would argue that freeing up gold for healers/tanks to respec and PvP would liven the community. It’s a massive gold sink, but all it does is require people to do grindy, monotonous solo farms like the solo priest mara run for hours. I highly doubt it has noticeable impacts on the economy, beyond requiring respec dependent classes to avoid doing content that they actually enjoy. I see your concern, and it’s reasonable, but I just don’t think it would be damaging to the economy in a greater sense.

Again, defeats the point of Classic. Dual Specs weren’t introduced until Wrath/Cata. Again, you thought you could handle it without all these features, but you didn’t. That’s entirely my point.

You really enjoy spending 100g a week to play the game? I get it, nostalgia and all, but that’s not fun for anyone. There’s no sense of accomplishment or progression. Just loss of time and effort into a hole in the ground.

Exactly, you thought you wanted the Classic experience, but you didn’t.

If you take the very most extreme, conservative point on an issue, state that you don’t want to move your position even an inch, and then ask what can be offered to you, you’re being selfish and entitled. Compromise involves meeting in the middle. There are likely people playing that would like a ton of changes, but would be willing to set aside those desires to agree to a few important QoL changes that benefit the majority of

It goes both ways. Those asking for changes are just as selfish. Not taking into consideration the #nochange (which I use metaphorically) stance. That’s great that people want all these changes, but they don’t belong in Classic.

The player base decides where the middle is. Some people have expressed wanting Classic+ or even expedited patching to TBC. I understand that your position is one without changes, but it’s not the only position, nor necessarily the most commonly held one. I personally don’t care that much either way. I just see the #nochange crowd posting all of these threads and see that attitude as pretty delusional and also pretty selfish. You aren’t ever going to get an immaculate Vanilla experience from Classic, so shouldn’t your slogan be #minimalchanges? If your position is that it’s all or nothing- that you aren’t being given anything, so you are going to tell everyone who doesn’t feel the same as you to kick rocks- why should people that hold a differing position care the slightest about your desires? Your concept of compromise seems to be “I get exactly what I want and you get to deal with it.”

Again, you’re taking “#nochanges” too seriously. It’s a metaphor. And aren’t the Pro-Changers being just as selfish? And telling #nochangers to kick rocks because of “there’s already changes, LOL”?

You’re never going to get an unchanged Vanilla. Face it. You’re on a 1.13(? this patch never existed) TBC pre-patch, with wackily time-gated content, screwed up mob mechanics, screwed up batching, and so many non-Vanilla mechanics that the list is a mile long. I’m not sure why some intentional, player oriented changes are so incredibly disruptive to your experience that you feel the need to flip anyone who doesn’t hold your view the metaphorical bird.

Again with the “but it’s already not Vanilla, LOL”. Not an excuse to keep changing it or stray away with more non-Vanilla things.

You already have some changes, so #nochanges is never going to happen. That’s my argument. Your shouting this slogan that’s literally never going to happen as some justification that no QOL changes can occur. If I were you, I’d stop saying “proves the slippery slope”, because it just shouts “I’m arguing a fallacy” to anyone who has read about how a slippery slope argument is highly prone to fallacy.

Again, with the “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL”, as an excuse to continously drag Classic through the mud.

You’re taking the “#nochanges”, literally. It’s a metaphor. It’s catchier than “#nomorechanges”.

Slippery slope is real. 'Cause you keep bringing up “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL”, which is the exact door needed to drag Classic through the mud.

Believe it or not, you’re wrong.

Nice projection.

They removed XP from mobs that had XP in vanilla because they didn’t like that people were farming them.

This isn’t Vanilla, this is Vanilla flavored Classic the way that Blizzard WANTS us to play.

Again, with the “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL”. It’s an excuse to open up that can of worms for more changes.

No, I’m talking torch room farming. It was completely legit, people did do it in Vanilla but because youtube wasn’t as big and streaming didn’t exist it wasn’t as widespread.

Blizzard didn’t like that they could do that so, in a very anti-vanilla move, they removed XP from the mobs.

Still not an excuse for a Barbershop, Achievements, Personal Loot, Guild Banks, etc.

So they fix “bugs and exploits”, while adding likely thousands of bugs and exploits. Sounds like a whole lot of #nochanges to me…

Again, you’re taking the metaphor too seriously.

And yet they used a Legion client for Classic… Have you ever stopped to consider that their reference client isn’t from Vanilla? (Hint: It’s from TBC. That’s why Skull of Impending Doom and Discombobulator Ray are on the TBC patch) Maybe if the #nochanges crowd spent more time researching the actual state of Classic, instead of living in a fantasy where we are playing Vanilla, they’d realize that their position is ridiculous.

Again, “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL” is the exact kind of mentality needed to make more changes.

They could’ve built a functional BNET API for the Classic client. Their approach was lazy as can be. But hey, that’s BlizzActivision for you.

Again, “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL”.

So the mail changes dont prove #nochanges is a joke?

Why’s it difficult to understand the concept of metaphors.

Bro, it’s only #changes if the player base gets a change that makes the game more fun. Sh1tty, unasked for changes are still #nochanges because reasons.

PS: They broke a ton of macro scripting calls that worked in Vanilla. #nochanges

Because you gave them the perfect excuse “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL”, so let’s continue dragging Classic through the mud.

The slippery slope has already started! Omg the horror!

Yep, thanks to to the “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL” crowd.

We got 'em, boys! Quickly, remove the talent trees and give everyone a flying mount. Oh, and BATTLE PETS.

Yeah 'cause it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL. See how quickly that steamrolls?

Thank god i can mail multiple items in Classic, ive been looking forward to Naxx LFR

Well, it’s not like Classic is Vanilla, anyway, LOL.

But a barbershop somehow leads to LFR? THIS is why #nochanges was always, and will always be, a joke.

Yes, because it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL.

So now we’re at #minimalchanges and just haggling over how much to change?

I still want no further changes. Phases was a mistake. All of it should’ve been released when Classic launched. So was layering. 'Cause they’re being used as excuses.

No i dont have to name other changes cause nochanges should be opposed to all changes otherwise youre just #somechanges.

Another example of the movement being a joke is when they insert themselves into a tbc server thread saying theyd be ok with it if it doesnt have flying and insert personal issue with BC here changes.

Don’t include me in that conversation. I have nothing to do with it.

Again, you’re just generalizing the moment you see “#nochanges”, I’m somehow lumped into that category. Especially, when I’m using it metaphorically.

Ok, but you agree that the mail change isn’t going away, so #nochanges will never happen.

Again, doesn’t mean I accept those changes. I’ve said this repeatedly. Again, #nochanges is metaphor. Stop taking it seriously. Let’s stop using “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL” to continously drag Classic through the mud.

So the position of nochanges is to be against all changes but justify the changes that do get made.

Got it.

No.

Woah, there. Get out of here with that nuanced opinion! I think that’s totally reasonable. The #nochanges slogan just needs to go. It really hurts the argument imo.

So is “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL”.

By default the slogan should be #somechanges then.

It’s a metaphor for #nomorechanges. #nochanges is catchier.

Its also easier to just not type it, considering that battle was lost long ago.

Not a reason to give up and continue adding more changes to it.

Another battle nochanges lost? When dire maul releases. I mean the L’s just keep piling up on you guys.

Dire Maul was in Vanilla, though? Like I said, the Phases was a mistake 'cause if gives people like you to add more changes 'cause “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL”.

The difference is subtle but important. When someone says #nochanges , like it’s some achievable goal, that indicates, to me:

1. That they are unaware of the current state of Classic and the changes that already exist in the game, or are aware of said state but are delusional enough to think that Blizzard is somehow going to transform it into a carbon copy of Vanilla
2. That they are utterly and completely adverse to compromise.

If you said #minimalchanges or something like it, your post doesn’t come with the baggage that such an extreme, and likely impossible, sentiment like #nochanges carries.

Edit: hell, something like #keepitvanilla would be much more palatable imo

Again, it’s a metaphor. Again, we’re back to “it’s not Vanilla, anyway, LOL” which is all that’s needed to add a stream of more non-vanilla features. 'Cause people (#notall) can’t play without them. Which still supports my point. You think you did, but you didn’t.

What’s so hilarious is seeing the legions of people who play dps classes saying “no changes” to dual spec. Yeah, because it doesn’t impact you at all.

Try playing a tank and tell me that dual spec wouldn’t be an objective improvement to the game.

Really, it doesn’t matter, because BC Classic and WOTLK Classic are inevitable anyway. I know this simply because it’s lazier and easier than actually doing what they should do (make an actual new MMO), so it’ll happen.

Then stop hijacking Classic to appease your BC and Wrath desires. That’s all I’m asking.

Naxx should have been available on day 1.

In fact, the only reason phases happened, IMO, is that the rest of the content doesn’t actually work right now. Classic is so error ridden and glitchy that I think the only reason they gated content was to buy them time to fix it.

They didn’t even have time to implement key chains into the Legion client/infrastructure.

It made absolutely zero sense to have endgame talents/abilities/itemization but not actually have all of the endgame available.

Dire Maul, ZG, BWL, AQ20, AQ40, and Naxx, and BGs can’t come soon enough. There’s nothing to do. I’m already bored.

I agree, phases should’ve never happened, but I disagree that there’s “nothing to do”. That’s an entirely different conversation.

personal loot, effects gameplay tremendously.

You missed my point but read what this person just said:

In a good way.

They’ll find some excuse.

it doesn’t matter personal loot effects the gameplay and difficulty, barbershop does not.

But wait, “Classic is not Vanilla, anyway, LOL”

We’ve already established that Activision’s goal was never authenticity given that they decided to be lazy and use the Legion client instead of update the original client and server code because it was easier.

Might as well fix the game at this point. Vanilla was broken anyway.

Again with the whole “it’s not Vanilla, anywat, LOL”, so let’s just kerp dragging Classic through the mud.

Doesn’t mean that vanilla wasn’t horribly broken in many ways.

Precisely why you don’t want Classic.

I think I’m caught up, now.

[Wirt-stalagg]

Still not an excuse for a Barbershop, Achievements, Personal Loot, Guild Banks, etc.

I never said it was, I was just responding that Blizz is making Classic into they vanilla THEY want, not actual vanilla

[Flocket-mankrik]

I never said it was, I was just responding that Blizz is making Classic into they vanilla THEY want, not actual vanilla

There are those who are which is the point.

[Nelthene-icecrown (Nelthene)]

Actually, I agree. I’m under no illusion that speaking truth to power is any more than a convenient way to waste the energy of the masses. I suspect Blizzard’s internal analysis constitutes 100% of the reason so few changes were made.

All our chanting really did was bring it back.

As to who we are to dictate what will be accepted, we are the paying customer. Our voice is our payment. Presumably enough customers refrained from purchases to ding Blizzard’s bell.

A hashtag most definitely can imply an argument. Insults rarely do.

[Nelthene-icecrown (Nelthene)]

Actually I was very encouraged to read in another of your posts an explanation for what the slippery slope argument is, and the qualifications for being a slippery slope fallacy! This is a significant step up over most who claim to see the fallacy.

Apparently it has been pointed out that there is in fact a causal relationship between each step down the slope, i.e., a tendency to make changes to appease the crowds. The more people appeased, the more likely the next change, Etc.

I’d be interested in why you don’t find that compelling.

[Ginzo-pagle]

All our chanting really did was bring it back.

Was more than just one group within the group. It was everyone.

Everyone should be allowed to have conversation and in most of these threads with #nochanges has been pretty frustrating.

Now, OP reminded me this was about Classic and I did get side tracked into talking about Classic+, but hopefully people come around to a Classic+ later on (we’re still early phase) and entertain it at some point.

I’m all for leaving Classic as it is. But SOME QoL isn’t so bad either, mechanically mostly. But I get not having some of the proposed suggestions in Classic and would like to see it in a Classic+ capacity.

[Nelthene-icecrown (Nelthene)]

You are using the word objective as if you know what it means, but flatly wrong.

Running to a trainer and paying a hefty fee to change the way you play the game is an integral part of many immersive RPGs. For those who prefer immersive RPGs, it would objectively be better.

For those who prefer action games with minimal investment, it would be an objective improvement because it increases the action and reduces the investment.

Because it is an objective improvement for two different people, the word we use is subjective.

[Shocktastic-mankrik]

Absolutely. Blizzard’s INTENTIONS with Classic was to make a recreation of the vanilla game as it was a short while before TBC launched. This means that any and all QoL features that were added later were NOT put into the game because they previously did not exist.

Blizzard has also stated that it was created to be a museum piece to remain AS IS in perpetuity so long as retail WoW exists. Ion Hazzikostas himself has stated that making ANY changes to Classic would be the equivalent of opening Pandora’s Box…meaning they DON’T WANT TO MESS WITH IT!!!

So to you and everyone else who wants Classic to have QoL changes just to cater to all the retail plebs…Tough tiddies. Either advocate for Classic+…wait for TBC/WoTLK or whatever your favorite expansion was to be put out again…OR…S.T.F.U and play Classic the way it is and deal with it, or go back to retail…THOSE are your options

[Nelthene-icecrown (Nelthene)]

I definitely agree that even among no changers there was diversity. I’m actually one who plays the game as a single player action game, ignoring story, socialization, etc. Definitely not mainstream.

I don’t really agree that the hashtag stopped conversation. For sure it forstalled many intelligible contributions from those using it, but I’m assuming the no change argument was all they had to articulate anyway. And given how tricky the no changes position actually is to intuit (even after explaining lol), I think the hashtag actually served us well in conveying our message.

I will be happy to sign any of your petitions for Classic Plus or burning Crusade, maybe even Lich King, as long as they do not take away my classic.

[Ginzo-pagle]

I think the hashtag actually served us well in conveying our message.

The thing is, the biggest opponent (Blizzard) agreed not to defile it. I feel that same zealous fight is weighed way too viciously against players bringing up decent issues.

Anything remotely reasonable (IE: pro spell batching) needs adjusting, the quickest # thrown out there is somehow grounds for argument.

I will be happy to sign any of your petitions for Classic Plus or burning Crusade, maybe even Lich King, as long as they do not take away my classic.

That’s all we can really ask for.

[Growlingbear-earthfury]

My thing about the #nochanges is that we didnt get classic. We got a Pserver on 1.12.1
Classic should have started at 1.1 we need all the crappy talents in the wrong trees.
1.12.1 at launch made the game waaaay too easy. The raid difficulty doesn’t catch up until AQ.

[Shocktastic-mankrik]

LOL taking these pro changes people to school…love it

[Ginzo-pagle]

LOL taking these pro changes people to school…love it

Not sure if you been to school.

[Shocktastic-mankrik]

Nice ad-hom…go back under your bridge troll

[Ginzo-pagle]

That’s rich coming from you.

[Nelthene-icecrown (Nelthene)]

Well, this was understood from the beginning to be a serious issue. There were even those who sought to argue for a specific version of classic. Eventually however it was collectively decided that anything under the classic umbrella was acceptable as long as nothing outside it was let in.

And unfortunately difficulty and challenge were one of the things cast aside to enable no changes.

Frankly I’d have happily swallowed barber shops, transmogrification, even pet battles, if I could simply have my crowd control back. But I am merely one among the crowd.

[Shocktastic-mankrik]

You obviously haven’t done any pug raids in classic or you’d realize how much value it would add.

LOL that was your first mistake right there…raids were meant to be done in GUILDS not PUGs…Bosses only drop 3 pieces of loot, and to expect a fair shot at anything in a PUG is sheer lunacy. You might be able to get away with pug raids in retail, but Classic is a whole different animal. You should’ve realized that to begin with…or did you not play vanilla back in the day?? If not, then it’s not like you couldn’t have done some research about the end game content in advance

[Growlingbear-earthfury]

We didn’t get no changes. We got a private server on 1.12.1
We should have started at 1.1
1.12.1 makes everything before AQ too easy.

[Emoo-anathema]

In summary, dual spec is an objective improvement. Thanks for verifying.