Changes to 1.12 are still changes regardless of when they happened.
Yes because the pro change crowd is willing to actually discuss changes on a case by case basis instead of taking an all for nothing position.
Well then maybe the #nochanges crowd who weren’t just rabid fanatics should have spoken up then and acknowledged that some changes were going to happen. But at that point as 1.12 hadn’t been announced the #nochanges crowd in general was perfectly happy to just rant. At this point the #nochanges crowd has made their bed, and we all get to lie in 1.12.
Frankenpatch was always a part of no change from day 1.
The idea that if it doesn’t follow a very specific form of no changes then it’s not no changes is just made up BS from people with an anti-nochange agenda.
You don’t get to dictate what our own stance is to us.
A lot of us have discussed the merits of different versions of Vanilla for things like pre-1.10 threat and 1.5 vs 1.12 AV.
The only rule is that it has to be from Vanilla. After that, a lot of us were willing to discuss it on a case by case basis.
A lot of us did acknowledge that we weren’t getting out of this with a pixel perfect recreation of the game. Especially knowing that they were using the modern client and working backwards from that.
But that didn’t mean I was going to turn around and suddenly argue in favour of things that didn’t need to be there like updated classes, guild banks, etc. My reasons for arguing in favour of it being as authentic as possible don’t stop just because one pixel is out of place.
But that is a highly hypocritical position. A frankenpatch regardless of what elements it includes is by definition not authentic.
At the end of the day #nochanges(but changes that happened in vanilla are okay) is no different than asking for changes. It is not an authentic experience and you are just asking for what you personally want out of classic.
An authentic experience is 1.12 which is what we’re getting. And that is ironically what #nochanges always wanted, an authentic experience.
It’s only hypocritical under the definition of the stance that you’ve made up that we never attempted to claim was our stance.
In other words: We’re not being hypocritical at all. You’re just trying to bend facts to fit your narrative of what you want to make us out to be.
For the record I argued in favour of a full 1.1->1.12 patch progression and now that we’re getting static 1.12 with a content release schedule I’m still fine with that even if it wasn’t my first choice.
So trying to point out that this is no changes doing like 1.12 is a bad thing doesn’t really have an effect on me because I’m not one of the people who are crying over it =P
Most of that seems to be born of people who think 1.12 is too easy, but I was never under any illusion about WoW’s difficulty even in authentic 1.1. The game was built to cater to casuals from the start. It was always an easy game.
1.12 is an authentic point in time, not necessarily an authentic vanilla experience. There was never any way for them to create that, because all of us have changed since then so the experience will always change.
And an authentic progression from 1.1 to 1.12 would be an authentic experience, and it’s great you wanted that. We’re not getting that though, so at this point asking for anything outside of 1.12 is asking for changes, regardless of whether it’s 1.5 AV, different threat mechanics, or guild banks if you ask for any of those you are no longer asking for an authentic experience.
As I said before: You don’t get to dictate what our stance is to us.
and people who are adamant that they didn’t want changes from outside vanilla aren’t suddenly going to turn around and go “Oh damn well I guess I better be in favour of guild banks now” just because you tried to redefine what no changes is.
We can go back and forth all day about you calling us hypocrites and me calling you dishonest, but I’m not sure what it is you think you’re trying to accomplish.
All you’ve shown is that I was right: You’re just as unwilling to be open minded as you claim we are. You have a singular image about what no-changes is in your head, and that’s that. It doesn’t matter what anybody tells you.
Horrible idea. It’s a solved game. Doesn’t matter how hard you make it, the majority of meta gameplay won’t change in any significant way unless you alter class design.
If you’re going to fundamentally alter the way the game operates, you have a new game. Why not just create a new game at that point?
I’m not dictating your stance to you, you have made your stance clear. You claim you want an authentic experience. Well a frankenpatch is not an authentic experience, I mean sorry but it just isn’t.
Now if you want to talk changes to 1.12, let’s talk changes to 1.12.
And i’ve never been dishonest, I’ve always said I don’t think vanilla was a perfect game and I would like to see improvements too it. Being dishonest is claiming you want an authentic experience then trying to claim that changes to an actual authentic experience are somehow authentic.
Except as I’ve already pointed out: No changes was about no changes from outside of Vanilla. It was made clear from the start that a “best of” frankenpatch was valid under the stance, even if it wasn’t an experience that ever strictly speaking existed in 2004-2006.
So if you’re trying to claim that frankenpatch is not no changes then yes, you are trying to dictate our stance to us.
and making those claims isn’t going to convince anybody who was against non-Vanilla changes to entertain guild banks or anything else from outside of 2004-2006.
You claim you want an authentic experience, a frankenpatch is not an authentic experience. At the end of the day a frankenpatch regardless of whether it fits into your post 1.12 announcement of #nochanges it not authentic.
It is merely what you want out of classic and by no means anything that existed in vanilla. As such it is no different than anyone asking for post 1.12 changes because that is what they want out of classic.
You in fact do not want an authentic experience, you just have your personal wishes for what you want out of classic. And ironically this is why the #nochanges crowd can’t even get behind the same ideal anymore. Some of you want X pre 1.12 some of you want Y.