Correct when they were operating under #nochanges.
Yep, and most of the things they did other than just copying the original game were awful.
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Wait, you seriously think Classic and TBC Classic were no changes? They may not have included your changes, but that doesnât mean they were #nochanges.
You still played anyway though.
Hmm⌠well that was their stated goal for vanilla and TBC, which mostly they did adhere to.
For some idiotic reason they are making major changes to the most successful version of WoW, /shrug
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You act like absolutely everything has to be pristine and perfect, otherwise any complaints or criticism isnât valid because the person giving the criticism still participates.
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Yeah because all the people who wanted âVanilla conceptsâ had their fill, realized that they really didnât want them, and were eagerly waiting for Wrath to change those conceptsâŚ
âŚuntil Blizzard jabbed their finger in it. People are complaining about Wrath because they want Wrath, not Season of Vanilla in Northrend.
SoM wasnât talked about by the community because no one cared. People gave it a try, said âNah, sick of thatâ and went back to TBC, the Wrath of the Lich King Waiting Room.
You are not the communityâs conscience, youâre the Vanilla purists ego attempting to force its will on the community.
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They made plenty of changes. The same group of people that made SoM and are making Classic Wrath, also made Classic TBC and Classic, both of which, you played extensively.
For very good reasons actually.
Participates, enjoys, and pays for. Itâs important to make that distinction.
Wait, so you want Blizzard to design Classic around people that thought they did, but they didnât?
I canât believe thatâs the argument you want to make here. If Classic isnât for you, thereâs retail, which Ion confirmed will have LFD.
Right â so Blizzard should design the game around people that, as you already admitted, have fickle desires pertaining to the game?
Why would Blizzard give into this group who already has shown that they donât necessarily know what they want?
Are you trying to make my arguments for me? It kinda takes the fun out of this for me.
Iâll use your own phrase here, Eloreael, âYou are not the communityâs conscience, youâre the tourist who never wanted Classic to begin with.â
No, people got Vanilla as it was. Realized they didnât want that, and now want Wrath as it was, not adjusted for the very things people rejected by discarding Season of Mastery.
Itâs not a hard concept, but you really seem unable to understand it.
Because most of those people quit. Private servers with Vanilla builds are as strong as they were pre-Classic, because they went back there after Classic Era died and SoM was boring.
The remaining players are the ones waiting for Wrath⌠and apparently you.
I didnât want Vanilla. I wanted Wrath and have been waiting patiently for it. You are the leftover that wonât go back to Era servers and instead are demanding Vanilla in Northrend.
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Dismissing the criticism and feedback of players who are passionate about the game, and want to keep enjoying it and improve it, is a sign of a terrible company. This is what lead to retail, and the team in charge of Classic are making this mistake.
The people who want these changes are not in the majority. Blizzard isnât using the playerbase and the popularity of changes to determine if a change should happen, theyâre using their own design opinions and this is dangerous.
Yep and vanilla/TBC were #nochanges. We didnât see how bad they really were till SoM when they actually tried to make design changes. Not just no duh balance changes.
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Right, so, in other words, âYou thought you did, but you didnâtâ, and now, Blizzard is supposed to take a shot in the dark and hope that this time, for Wrath, your side of the argument is âwe thought we did, and we didâ?
So yeah, you want them to take a risk with your side over just giving their loyal and dedicated Classic fans the Wrath experience they want?
And after all of this⌠youâre shocked that theyâve sided with anti-LFD and not you?
The remaining players are the ones waiting for Classic Wrath, which does not include LFD. If thatâs not what you want, you would have unsubbed by now.
Oh right â this is all starting to make sense now. Yeah, this pretty much proves to me that you are only talking about your own niche experience with the Classic franchise, and youâre trying to extrapolate it into a generalized community sentiment, which you have no evidence of.
Again, it should not shock you that Blizzard is going in a different direction.
Actually, Iâm neutral in all of this, but if I did want something more âvanillaâ why would I go back to Classic Era when I can just play Classic Wrath?
Thatâs what you arenât understanding.
No itâs not. Iâm guessing you have little experience running a company, but not all feedback is worthy of consideration.
If you feel your feedback isnât being considered at all, that may be a good indication your feedback could use some reflection.
What led to retail is⌠LFD. Literally.
Canât prove it and game design isnât a democracy â but you already knew that.
No â it really isnât. The players do not know what they want, Elorael already showed us that right here:
Blizzard knows better than the community, and theyâve proven that time and time again.
See retail.
Thereâs a reason Wrath had 12+ million subs and blizzard wonât even publish sub counts anymore.
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For the people that wanted old versions of the game, vanilla may have been too far swung in the other direction - personally I loved it, but I understand not everyone did. And thatâs why they were waiting for Wrath.
The loyal and dedicated Classic fans would continue to play even with LFD added. Iâm a loyal and dedicated Classic fan and Iâve been subbed this whole time playing it. Does what I want not matter to you? Should it not matter to Blizzard?
A lot of players are still hoping Blizzard changes their mind.
Let me guess, you own and operate a Fortune 500 company and have thousands of employees?
Feedback is extremely valuable no matter what it is. You should always take feedback into consideration, and when itâs actual feedback that can improve the game - like, say, âdonât do this with covenants and hereâs whyâ - it should be addressed.
Of course itâs my fault. It canât be that Blizzard - a company well known for taking absolutely zero feedback into consideration and repeating the same mistakes - is the one that needs to reflect.
No itâs not. The game was still going just fine with LFD, with LFR. The last two expansions have been the worst the game has ever had and it was because Blizzard took zero feedback into consideration, doubled down on the worst designs theyâve ever come up with, and overpromised and underdelivered.
The, âpull the ripcordâ fiasco is just one of the latest things we can use as evidence.
Actually, OSRS - a very successful and more faithful, âClassicâ - uses democracy in the form of votes for all their changes. Instead of just going with what one or two devs think is right.
Their own design decisions lead to retail. If you think LFD is the cause of all the problems - then youâre a fool, but that was also Blizzardâs design.
Itâs not that the players donât know what they want. There are plenty of people who loved Classic, and plenty who never went on to TBC because they didnât want to leave Classic or the full vanilla experience is all they wanted.
Itâs that Blizzard is deciding for the players what they want, and thatâs the worst design you can do.
What a load of bollocks. Blizzard flat out said theyâd never do Classic and mocked the players for wanting it.
And now here we are.
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And after they saw how both Classic and Classic TBC panned out, they decided to stay for Wrath hoping it would be as it was?
Thatâs on them.
Not unless youâre willing to unsubscribe over it. Otherwise, you donât want it badly enough.
Right, right. I suspect this is what you will say halfway into Classic Wrath as well, when those same people are still here, complaining about the next outrage fotm topic.
Again, all this proves to me is you have very little experience running your own company and developing a product.
All feedback is not built the same. If your feedback is being dismissed, the first thing you should blame is NOT the party you are giving the feedback to. The problem, nearly always, is a lot closer to home.
If you truly think this, why do you continue to pay them? So that they can continue to ignore your feedback and repeat the same mistakes, as you claim?
Yes â it is. A large portion of retailâs most controversial features all stem from LFD⌠such as, cross realms, the talent revamp, cata revamp, LFR, M+, etc.
This entire portion is completely irrelevant. Your feelings towards Shadowlands is not relevant here.
But is it as successful as Classic WoW?
No â itâs not. Blizzard should not follow what less successful MMOs are doing. Not to mention, OSRS has a completely different community to classic WoW. Thatâs a desperate apples-to-oranges comparison.
Yeah, design decisions such as retail, which they are going back on for Classic⌠thatâs the entire point, Piezuri. Do you not see that?
Correct, finally, weâre getting somewhere. And, itâs a design decision they are going back on.
And thereâs even more players that asked for Classic and quit shortly after, because, drumroll they thought they did, but they didnât.
It really isnât, especially when the community has proven time and time again they are incapable of deciding for themselves what they want.
Yup, here we are â 3 years of people constantly asking for changes to Classic. Why do you think they started making changes to Classic in the first place?
Blizzard did know better. The players thought they did, but they didnât. Blizzard is taking back control of their game for Wrath. If thatâs not your cup of tea, Dragonflight will have LFD, confirmed by Ion.
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I amended this. I didnât want Vanilla.
You mean all the ones that played Season of Mastery?
Yes. Literally the decisions theyâve made are shocking because theyâve used your inane rambles as covering fire to encourage paid boosts.
No, the ones remaining are hoping things will change. Some have decided that Blizzard is not worth trusting to fix their mistake and quit. Others are fighting to see LFD included, and others are just hoping. Youâll see the death of Wrath without LFD around ToGC when people get super bored with nothing else substantive to do but level alts, but no way to do it without paying for a Blizzard Boost.
Not âmy own experienceâ. The experience of everyone who ever said âTBC is Wrathâs Waiting Roomâ. AKA most of the playerbase.
Hahaha, this has got to be the biggest lie in all your posts. If you were neutral, you would not be posting. Youâd just let whatever happens happen. Instead youâre loudly arguing against anyone who disagrees with what you want. Over. And over. And over.
You arenât neutral any more than I am. You want Vanilla in Northrend and anyone who doesnât is âNo true Classic scotsmanâ, because you consider yourself the final arbiter of what it means to be âClassicâ. Except your only mindset is Vanilla, and most players want Wrath or weâd all be playing Vanilla still.
Because people want Vanilla to be more like Wrath.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahah⌠sorry, thatâs just⌠youâre laughable in every point here.
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Right, you didnât. You just want Wrath. Meanwhile, thereâs many other players that are invested in Classic as a franchise, that are not only excited for Wrath, but now Cata, MoP, even WoD⌠all because Blizzard is willing to go in a direction DIFFERENT from the direction retail originally took. That same direction that made them all unsubscribe in the first place.
So again, I ask you, why would Blizzard design the game around Wrath only players, when they can instead, invest in a longterm player base?
Iâm not sure how youâve convinced yourself that SoM was for loyal and dedicated Classic fans.
Oh here we go. The old âEverything is to encourage boostsâ conspiracy. If Blizzard wanted to encourage boosts so bad, theyâd remove the restrictions placed on them. That would be their FIRST STEP.
Right â I suspect you will say this when we are deep into Wrath as well. Itâs really just an excuse as to why you donât have the numbers to prove that the removal of LFD is as unpopular as you claim it is.
Not only do you not have the numbers, but you didnât walk the walk yourself either.
Citation needed for that.
I am neutral, I just feel the urge to point out bad arguments when I see them.
Also, textbook use of NTS fallacy there.
Thatâs a projection if Iâve ever seen one. This entire rant of yours is based in no true neutral Scotsman. Also, it may be helpful for you to review what no true Scotsman actually is. You are butchering the meaning quite a bit here.
Because people thought they did, but they didnât. And if Blizzard did make Vanilla more like Wrath, those same people that asked for the changes would all quit, just like they did in retail originally.
Are you forgetting weâve done this dance before already?
So, now that youâve had your arguments dismantled at every point, you resort to ad hominems.
Do you think thatâs going to convince me or Blizzard of your points? I can see why Blizzard has stood their ground if thatâs your trump card.
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Because the people you keep referencing⌠already quit. Theyâre goneski. Back to Private Servers, when the majority of players moved on to TBC.
It was, to use your words âbecause Blizzard is willing to go in a direction DIFFERENT from the direction retail originally tookâ. That was the point of it. To provide different avenues like Ironman, improve bosses, and if it had been popular, probably add more content.
It wasnât. It was a massive flop. It failed. Those people didnât come back to Vanilla.
No, because they know the backlash would be massive, so theyâll add it around phase 2 or phase 3 when people are looking to level alts, and already used one boost. Youâre a far too shortsighted thinker (as evidenced by every post you make).
I levelled to 60 in Classic Vanilla, got bored. I raided all the way through Classic TBC, preparing for Wrath. You donât get to âNo True Scotsmanâ while advocating changing the Classic Wrath experience and design concepts. Youâre the ânot walking the walkâ Classic player.
Except you donât. You repeatedly advocate your stance regardless of whether you have any basis for it except your opinion.
You repeatedly tell me that Iâm not a ârealâ Classic player. Thatâs literally the definition of the âNo True Scotsmanâ fallacy. Claiming that someone doesnât meet the criteria and therefore their opinion doesnât matter. You have repeatedly said âClassic isnât for youâ which is a textbook example of âNo True Scotsmanâ because only âtrue scotsmanâ want what you want.
Back to school for you.
Yes. Literally you are soooo close to an epiphany, and then you walk away from it. People didnât want Vanilla as it was. Many, many people quit early in Vanilla because they didnât want it, and then came back for TBC. I know because Iâve talked to many of them in many places. Reddit, various Discords, here on the forums. People came back for TBC in prep for their favourite expansion Wrath. The concept of the âWrath babyâ is literally the people coming back for Wrath. A huge swathe of the community.
Wrath is the Vanilla people wanted, or it would have been except Blizzard listened to the vocal minority who wanted Vanilla in Northrend, like you.
Again, back to school. Literally made no personal comment about you and only about your arguments. Thatâs not an ad hominem, thatâs discarding your stance after pointing out all the flaws in your arguments.
And now, since I know youâll come back with the same points because you have no real argument, Iâll let you respond one more time without answering any of your nonsense for now. Thereâs no point to arguing with someone whoâs not listening, just repeating a checklist of debunked arguments.
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Wrong again Elorael. Theyâve all resubscribed for Classic Wrath because of the removal of LFD.
Right â so therefore, it WASNâT a classic experience. So again, it makes no sense why you would claim it was for Classic fans.
Please, do try to keep up with your own arguments. You are contradicting yourself.
Ah â so youâve decided to double down on your own conspiracy. Again, if any of this were true at all, they wouldâve done this already FOR TBC boosts.
Yeah, and have stayed subscribed the entire time. Were you too hoping things would change, or did you fail to recognize the pattern of #somechanges? Which is it, take your pick.
Elorael â thatâs absolutely not what NTS is about. Me rightfully pointing out that a game does not have to be designed solely around you is not NTS. Again, as Iâve already suggested, it would be wise for you to review NTS.
No, they didnât. They left for good because Classic was NEVER for them and they saw the signs early on that waiting for Wrath would be a lost cause because it would NEVER be as it was.
Something you failed to catch onto, apparently.
You should add âad hominemâ to your review list alongside NTS.
Projection at its finest. Chefâs kiss
Right â debunked arguments that Blizzard, a multi-billion dollar company, is listening to.
Are you sure Iâm the one thatâs been debunked? You can say that until your blue in the fact, but the opinion of the only people that matter disagree.
Enjoy your time in Classic Wrath.
It is doable.
Is it optimal is the problem you have.
For all the âgatekeepingâ the pro rdf side complains about they are unwilling to acceot that off meta builds do work.
Ahem
Okay âŚ
Also, âwhen your arguments have run out.â