Listen man,
We should all join these BGs on equal footing: no pre-made groups (40 well-geared people co-ordinating) and no map advantage (Horde owning 75% of the map in 2 mins). Otherwise, you throw off the entire balance of the system and it causes chaos as evidenced by everything that’s been going on recently. It’s simple.
Thanks!
There are two big issues alliance face:
Horde being able to engage us on our side first 100% of the time, die, then engage us in mid, die, then engage us on their IBGY just gives them too many chances to win. I’ve been in too many games where alliance thoroughly pwn horde in group battles, have 60+ kills before reaching IBGY but still are unable to cap the GY.
Broken Recall Trinket. There needs to be some sort of cooldown on it. Games where alliance have 300+ kills but still lose because 20 horde are teleporting ontop of them every 40 seconds are crap. Horde have no business winning when they are wiped so often.
Or if they wont fix recall trinket. Take DRs out of BGs or something. In games where alliance are being trinket zerged there simply isnt a reason for us to keep fighting after so many kills. It’s not fair horde get to continue losing fights but be rewarded for it.
Your argument is entirely outdated.
Alliance pug matches wind up with the entire team on defense, and not by choice - it’s because unless they somehow manage to win enough early fights and seize, hold, and cap a forward graveyard, the Horde WILL take Stonehearth and bottle the entire Alliance team behind the Icewing chokepoint. Any stragglers that slip past, or try to do so, get mercilessly hunted down.
Uh, I am encouraging you to keep shgy at all costs. I fully understand what happens to you when you lose and it is why I have preached capping shgy for 15 years. Controlling rezz points is how you will this pvp bg, when you actually pvp that is.
Unfortunately, the coordination and teamwork required to overcome the initial position disadvantage are beyond the capacity of most, if not all, Alliance pug groups in Classic.
So you are saying defense is beyond the capacity of alliance. I know this, which is why I am trying to get you guys to change your thinking. Defense is actually easier because you know, npcs & gys.
Instead of sending stealth to cap towers, which can easily be defended by recall or gy zerg, start capping gy’s and start winning. It just might take you a bit longer but at least your queues are way more then reasonable.
You also want them to move slowly - that’s just not possible. If they move any slower, they will be fighting the initial battle at Stoneheart graveyard, rather than near Balinda’s bunker.
Defending shgy > then Bal, shb, iwb. If we are zerging shgy, defend it proportionately. If we are doing the usual pull to Bal, counter us like you so often do but perhaps dont rush off once that Bal group is clear. Make sure we arent in SHB. Make sure you send as many of us as you can back to ibgy.
In the meantime, stealth cap the f’n gy (ibgy). As a priest I will often ride up to a gy and do my best to find a place where I can lose agro. This may actually be easier for horde then alliance based on map lay out. I am not sure you can solo cap ibgy like I know we can with shb or spgy. If I was attacking ibgy initally solo, I would try and find a spot to survey the gy and after the horde left I would ride just past the flag, shield up hopefully for a strategic fear cap. I have never had to do this so I do not know if it works, however two stealth could easily lie in ambush. Once we rezz, one pulls the guards, the other caps.
You defend your territory rabidly until this cap happens. Can you talk two stealth into doing this? Once the cap happens, as soon as you are out of combat on defense is when you ride up to offense, supporting that all important ibgy cap.
This is the grind, not actually moving slow, just taking objectives at the right time, without rushing forward w/ no thought. It has nothing to do with actual movement speed.
You can argue all you want that they’re trying to rush Drek and failing, and you might be right in that, but the difference of “trying to get our team to FW Keep” and “trying to get our team to take and hold a southern graveyard, even Snowfall” is entirely academic at this point, because pug groups get chewed up and destroyed when trying to go south, period.
Apparently you do not understand my suggestions of moving south at the proper time, ie once ibgy is capped. Until then your whole game hinge on shgy, you should tailor your strategy accordingly.
But apparently you cant, for whatever reason.
You take spgy back because you still have gy advantage. You have the closest rezz point, it takes us much longer to support spgy from shgy for us then it takes you to defend spgy from the cave.
Once you recap spgy, it should be even easier to evict us out of you base. You should not need a equal force as we will most likely either have been defeated at spgy trying to defend the cap OR split up between the two bunkers because you know, we think bunkers are the more important and cap them first for some reason.
So yeah, I mean there are some disadvantages to everything, you need to identify them and devise a way to over come them. If you chose not to take spgy and would prefer to defend the base or think you need the assistance of the archers, simply recall and get back in front us and evict us that way.
Use your tools and your common sense!
They can get to Balinda faster, kill her easier, cut the choke super easy, backdoor while mounted.
There’s a lot of things horde can do to gain an advantage, but most of this comes from their D-first focus.
There absolutely are mid map disadvantages. Anyone who thinks stone hearth should be easy to defend has probably got no map awareness. That’s like telling horde they should play defensively at fwgy.
Seriously? You have 4 non elites at the gy + a lt. If you defend shgy proportionately, you have the advantage. Given the fact that our meta is to round of lt’s and kill them in front of Bal bunkers you have upwards to 5 lt’s and possibly a commander from shb to fight with you.
I am not suggesting horde play defensively at fwgy, it has not been part of this conversation until you brought it up just now. The only reason why it belongs here is it is defended similarly to shgy, 4 non and 1 elite, the basic flag guards. I know how I defend fwgy personally and its with as many deaths as it takes interrupting flag caps by any means necessary. I suggest alliance does the same with shgy however with current meta, horde does not even try to cap shgy, they think it causes a turtle, meanwhile, they turtle! lol
It doesn’t matter where alliance meet horde, they are forced on defense because of the incoming horde zug zug. How are you not understanding that having little or no offense while defending a weak foothold is not a viable strategy? Even when we do wipe horde we’re still a football field away from any horde objectives.
A gy is never a weak strategic point of defense, ffs you rezz right there! Plu at minimum you have 4 reg and 1 elite npc to help you. The fact that you think any gy is a weak foothold not worth defending, especially one that is so valuable based on the where you will rezz is silly. This IS your forward gy, until you cap ibgy.
For some reason you do not want to use our over extending ourselves to your advantage, Having the npc and gy advantage allows you to defend it with less allowing those others to move forward and cap ibgy. This is how we used to do it, adequate defense complimenting our offense. No reason this strategy would not work for you, you just do not use it. More often then not you push as far south as you can, capping fwgy or more likely rh. This can be good for your offense but does nothing to help your defense as we will continually rezz at ibgy.
We’re really just playing armchair quarterbacks now but my experience from playing both horde and alliance is that I’ll take horde side every time.
It boggles my mind then after playing both sides you can not see the importance of ibgy and shgy. This may be part of the alliances problem, you do not understand how important it is to control gy’s and therefore rezz points.
Can I ask you a legit question? Have you played Eye of the Storm and if you have, if you could control 3/5 of the objectives, would that be the flag + 2 towers or 3 towers? Why?
Ugh, all I can say is this sort of thought process is why you guys are losing. I mean if you can so thoroughly dominate us in the battles, then the only thing left that is preventing you from winning MUST be your strategy.
I see you are a druid, why not ask a Rogue to come with you to ibgy to cap it while you guys are wiping us multiple times. You do realize there are 30 seconds between rezzes, there is a good chance there is no defense at ibgy because you guys usually ignore it. If you want to win, use your stealth to help take a gy, rogue pulls because he sprint and vanish while you cap…
That’s because those were premades. You literally just proved the point every alliance person is making here with your very own observations. It literally takes an organized alliance premade to win. Do people not see how incredibly unfair the map has to be to make that the case?
Defense is how we win, it has always been this way. No reason it would not work for the alliance as well, except they have the rush ingrained since always. The pugs just can not seem to adapt, actual advantages are seen as disadvantages because they can not seem to come up with alternative strategies once their zerg push fails. Nor do they put any contingency plans in place if it does. Plus when they do zerg, they go all in so when they fail, they have lost everything.
It is all or nothing and it is real easy to force them into nothing when you know what they are doing.
You’re really not listening.
Seriously, how long have you played this game? How much do you jump in random regular BGs on retail at max level?
I’ve played both Horde and Alliance, at various points through WoW’s history, and I can absolutely attest that the average Horde pug player is better at BG PVP than their Alliance counterpart. We can argue about the exact reasons for it til we’re both blue in the face, but it’s a pretty consistent fact - and I’d argue that the most important reason is that people who are playing Horde tend to be more interested in PVP overall. That too is pretty incontrovertible, because we know far more Horde are queueing for BGs, despite being roughly even on population overall.
We know the strategies. We execute them whenever we can, and we do win - again, when we have people who want to PVP (as opposed to fish/afk/bot/etc) and want to coordinate and work together. And we do win, when those happen. Unfortunately, we have to arrange groups with lots of like minded players, lest we get bogged down by players who, to put it charitably, are not interested in working together or playing to win.
there literally is tho
alliance can’t defend choke point bridge anymore as horde just start backdooring
Yet I think you can use our push against us by simply sending your stealth to ibgy instead of a tower. Ambush us at SHGY but at the same time try and recruit 2 stealth to cap IBGY, most likely after the first rezz.
Strategy on AV scale is not really dependent upon composition as much as execution. If you dont have stealth, defending should allow you to do that with a smaller force because npcs and gys. So you send a few to a group to cap ibgy, the issue being timing of our rezz because you are playing defense and of course npcs.
You need to counter push and since I have not done this from alliance side, I do not know where the optimal spots are for you to base that push from. However all you really need is one stealth willing to work with the team as a scout, once we rezz and ride off is when you ride in and cap, you have 30s, timing is everything!
Uh, why would you b defending the bridge if we are attacking the base via backdoor? Shouldnt you be in the base then which will benefit you because all of your npcs will be there to assist, archer and static guards?
All it takes is one fear into a npc to agro them. If we are over extending ourselves and zerging your base be it the back door or bridge, defense proportionately. You should even be able to have a smaller force because you know, npcs and gy’s are on your side.
So literally you have no idea what you are talking about.
you seem to understand that yes infact horde do have an overwhelming advantage with respawns or else alliance wouldn’t need to do timing sensitive caps like the one you are suggesting
this has nothing to do with anything I’m saying. I’m complaining at horde being able to almost 100% of the time force turtle until they wipe alliance by spam recalling.
they should have a shot at recalling, not an “force turtle” button like recall trinket is now.
Actually yes it is.
I have lost 3 games today because we are trying to cap IBGY and have to constantly clear the horde while your spawn is a short ride away.
We can kill horde at IB and they can be back faster than horde can kill alliance at SHGY and alliance can get back to defend.
This is quite literally the strongest choke in the game.
Horde need to get over themselves they aren’t winning because they are trying. They are winning because of something in this version of AV that was remedied by blizzard near the end of TBC as a balance patch.
Look at the HKs and death in the initial portion of the game. Tons of times the alliance are ahead when we clear horde at belinda and push to IBGY. It’s not until we lose the push at IBGY because of how quickly the horde can get reinforcements that we start to lose the HK/death ratio.
what? I’m complaining about horde being able to backdoor whenever we defend bridge.
the bridge WAS a much much more effective defense point than “npcs and archers”
We do this. It doesn’t work. We clear you at bel defend then send people to cap IBGY by the time the main force gets down there all the horde are rezed.
We kill you you guys kill some of us they have to go back all the way to SHGY.
Your cave is closer to IBGY then our SHGY is.
You can reinforce faster and we clear you guys but again you pick some of us off.
Now we are staggered.
Horde can literally keep bum rushing IBGY from your cave and still take it back because eventually our healers will oom and we can’t drop agro from IBT archers unless we run all the way back and jump off from small cliff at IBGY or run forward to TP.
Since day 1, I would have had HWL on this toon back in the day but I had this crazy crop that I blame for forgetting that the marks gave honor as well as rep. Once I exalted all the reps, I was destroying marks by the stacks. I lead the top premade during my push on Deathwing and even xfered to Malorne where I lead the horde pvp group. We were the third best pvp team on the server, the top horde pvp guild was way better and we were just able to beat the alliance guild pvp team but they were consistently > then us.
I was listening and quite frankly you might be part of the problem as I have been saying it seems to the the alliance mentality, lack of strategy, seeing everything as a negative when it can be used as a positive.
With this post you have essentially moved the goal post. The original content of the thread was a complaint about the horde starting point and how it was a disadvantage. Now we are complaining about the fact that the people who rolled horde are more pvp minded, which I am not disputing. This thread is testament to that.
Look I sympathize with you guys, this is why I am spending so much time here tonight trying to persuade you to yet again turn the tables on us, much like you did by not capping sfgy. I am encouraging you all to be the defensive team you were meant to be, play to your strengths, use situations to your advantage instead of complaining.
Because if i was still playing, for every counter you come up with, you can bet Id be think of ways to counter the counter. These bg’s are huge games of chess on steroids, if you guys do not up your strategy and leave the complaining of non exploits behind you, it will continue to be bad for you in pug vs pug scenarios.