No Rational Explanation For AV Win %

So after Horde caps SH GY and SF GY, the entire alliance team is at SP GY.

At that very point, the alliance should be able to defend that point in a full turtle… yet guess what happens, the horde eventually overrun the alliance and take SP GY.

Why? There’s 2 major reasons:

  1. More alliance AFK, this happens in virtually every match right from the start. Look at all the players on the scoreboard with 0 kills and 0 deaths. More alliance than horde.

  2. Horde have more high ranked players with better gear.

Those 2 reasons are why a horde mob overcomes an alliance mob in most AVs. I’m talking about fights where the map location doesn’t come into play (i.e. entire alliance team pinned at SP GY).

If the counterargument is people give up, then look at SH GY. Why can the entire alliance team be farmed there? Gear and AFKs. Where are the alliance rank 10+; horde typically has way more in the average AV.

Yeah you’re gonna have to ask ActiBlizz about that.

Your argument is entirely outdated.

Alliance pug matches wind up with the entire team on defense, and not by choice - it’s because unless they somehow manage to win enough early fights and seize, hold, and cap a forward graveyard, the Horde WILL take Stonehearth and bottle the entire Alliance team behind the Icewing chokepoint. Any stragglers that slip past, or try to do so, get mercilessly hunted down.

Unfortunately, the coordination and teamwork required to overcome the initial position disadvantage are beyond the capacity of most, if not all, Alliance pug groups in Classic.

You also want them to move slowly - that’s just not possible. If they move any slower, they will be fighting the initial battle at Stoneheart graveyard, rather than near Balinda’s bunker.

You can argue all you want that they’re trying to rush Drek and failing, and you might be right in that, but the difference of “trying to get our team to FW Keep” and “trying to get our team to take and hold a southern graveyard, even Snowfall” is entirely academic at this point, because pug groups get chewed up and destroyed when trying to go south, period.

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This is all 100% irrelevant due to the crappy map balance by blizz.

It’s all total BS.

I’m so sad I wasted time getting to 60 on official Blizzard servers.

They’re so bad, they’re so wrong.

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Storm pike gy can be hit from every direction so in what world is it a choke when there are that many ways to access it? As for holding the bridge, what happens when alliance die and res in the cave because that happens? Then they have to get through the horde offense just to return to defense.

Even if alliance could hold horde at the bridge for days on end, what’s the outcome going to be for alliance? Where are we going?

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Nowhere.

it’s over.

More alliance AFK because they know they don’t have a fair chance to win in a pug due to map imbalances. Why try to win when you know your starting a huge disadvantage. Most people give up, don’t try and some AFK for that reason. Which explains the huge HK difference for horde in AV.

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They do not Overrun it. They are entering DB from the back doors…And alliance is caught in the middle of two forces, fighting Horde coming from SH while Horde is Capping DB bunkers too behind them.

Developers needs to fix these holes ASAP. This is unacceptable. And Horde is using it to the Max it is part of their Strategy.

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We’re going back to PSes that do Vanilla better than Blizzard ever could.

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Okay, but the problem is just that the alliance are not winning many fights in most of these games, and it starts with the initial battle. If you’re not at least wiping a giant chunk of the initial horde attack, you’re going to be on your heels immediately.

The map is not the sole reason why the top half of the scoreboard has a ton of horde with lopsided kill:death ratios in most AVs.

And I’m not talking about skill. I’m talking about PVP gear/high ranked players, and AFKs.

I’ve seen 2 AV alliance wins the past week. In both of them, the alliance ambushed at SH GY and then quickly rushed to IB GY and held it for 5 minutes while thoroughly wiping the horde behind them. The whole horde team was pinned around TP. Both had few if any alliance AFK, and tons of paladins/priests healing with a lot of mages. Great compositions for that kind of AV strategy.

I agree that it’s worth considering moving the horde cave a bit south, but I don’t see how AV battles end up balanced until more top alliance rankers start pugging it…

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Yes it is.

It is inappropriate and unfair that Horde have immediate control of 2/3 of the map due to their starting position.

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que times…

do i win a prize?

Horde attack from the back of Balinda’s bunker. Where is the NPC support? Archers are not hitting you there and lieutenants are on the other side of the bunker.

Horde attacking Alli from behind Bal bunker is on the alliance, no one is forcing you to meet us there. Many games you ambush us from shgy when we pulls lt’s to Bal, which is a good strategy. You get to shgy before we do and hide at the gy till you see us roll up.

Alliance are conditioned to rush for a few reasons, but one of them is the mid map disadvantages. Defending at stone hearth is shooting themselves in the foot since it’s inevitable they will lose their foothold there and they are pinned behind stone hearth then.

You have not really given any mid map disadvantages. The fact that we meet in your territory is actually an advantage to you, use it!

IF alliance get an offensive push going and can grab another GY south of stone hearth, they stand a better chance, but there’s where the plan falls apart. Horde reach stone hearth at the same time, shutting down our offense. If we get any through, they are too few to withstand the horde on that side of the map. It’s a total uphill battle for alliance to win a defensive game so they try something that has a higher success rate, rushing.

Its funny, you guys stopped capping sfgy and forced us into some stupid meta of not capping shgy. We suffer the same herd mentality you do and promptly lose shb and iwb caps all the time to it. The rest of this paragraph seems to contradict itself, you cap a southern gy but yet our capping of shgy shuts down your offense??? How can capping shgy shut down your offense if you have already taken a southern gy (I hope you mean ibgy as that is the most sensical gy to take as it pushes our rezzes back).

I have to assume you mean by us taking shgy, it makes it much harder for you to get through to take a southern gy, which is why I am preaching that you guys defend shgy. You whole game depends on it as does ours with ibgy. Rezzing further and further away from battle = bad. Allowing the opposing faction to dictate where you rezz = bad. What the horde has been doing with shgy trying to avoid a turtle while turtling = extra stupid.

So this is my point, your logic is flawed and this is why you and the alliance are having so many problems, its pandemic across all servers alliance side and more rampant than what horde experiences.

As long as horde can zug zug stone hearth, alliance are forced on defense at their worst foothold and with little or no offense to pull horde players back to defense and get some breathing space to mount a strong enough offense to make a difference.

This here is why you lose, you need to defend the gy appropriately. If we are stacking a bunker and lightly pushing the gy if at all, lightly defend the gy and take your bunker back. I do not know what class you play but many can solo cap, if you can not try and persuade two stealth to head to ibgy to cap after we rezz, then ride into our territory to defend the cap as nothing else is as important.

It’s not a matter of horde being better or alliance being bad. It’s a tried and true tactic that works to the advantage of horde.

Capping shgy works for us because we play defense. If we did not play defense, you guys would be into our base long before we would, as then it becomes a pve race and you are the pve faction apparently. We lose this race everytime and we know it, so we defend our gy’s and towers. Back in the day our defense used to start at ibgy/ibt choke and would comprise of anywhere from 10 to 20 people.

Now for whatever reason we zerg you in your territory full force where you actually have the advantage. We do this because you let us, that trinket works both ways.

Honestly, it is this thought process that you have presented here as to why you guys lose so often, all things being equal.

I’m in an AV (right now) where the highest ranks on each side are 3 rank 13, 1 rank 12, 3 rank 10, 12 rank 9.

Of those 19 players, 14 are horde. Alliance has 1 rank 10 and 4 rank 9 in this game.

Yes, a map change would probably help, but high rank alliance need to queue. You can’t have one side have that much of a gearing advantage.

I said it wasn’t fair in my post, but it’s not enough to account for the Horde winning nearly every match of pug vs pug.

Hawne,

I agree with you 100%. I think another aspect of this problem is removing the Alliance premades ability and making everyone join the BGs randomly as it was designed (minus joining with 5 of your friends).

This thought process is silly. Fighting a battle on two fronts is what the snowfall cap is all about. As horde, it is the only cap we want you to have, that way we split your forces. Defense gets to farm you using the npcs to our advantage, offense makes head way as best they can. Usually we can repel your greater offense based on npc assictance and gy zerg defense. Since you defend so lightly, offense usually make progress.

Now I am bringing this up because it is the same thing with the back door. In both instances all you have to do is defend, you have both gy and npc advantage. How is this not beneficial to you that we over extend ourselves and you can easily send us back to our closest gy?

Again, this is the thought process as to why you guys lose. You see everything as a negative instead of choosing to use situations to your advantage.

This is a huge factor. Imagine if Alliance arrived at IB at the same time as Horde (swapping the current situation where Horde arrive past SHB at the same time they meet Alliance). Horde have a single option (duh what’s the plan fella’s? … 39 responses are let’s defend IB)… pretty easy to have everyone on the same page right?.

Meanwhile Alliance are all over the shop … some trying to get to IBT, some SHB to defend, some to Bal, some to SHGY, some to IWB etc .,… ie they are fragmented and ripe to end up at the bridge (not-a-choke) defending the inevitable loss.

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Whatever you say op, no compromise before premades (welfare rankers) are gone. Talking about equal footing, is this a joke?

There absolutely are mid map disadvantages. Anyone who thinks stone hearth should be easy to defend has probably got no map awareness. That’s like telling horde they should play defensively at fwgy.

It doesn’t matter where alliance meet horde, they are forced on defense because of the incoming horde zug zug. How are you not understanding that having little or no offense while defending a weak foothold is not a viable strategy? Even when we do wipe horde we’re still a football field away from any horde objectives.

We’re really just playing armchair quarterbacks now but my experience from playing both horde and alliance is that I’ll take horde side every time.

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