The map is a factor but the biggest factor is Horde racials are just better. This has been the case throughout most of Wow not just vanilla. The result? More pvpers go Horde and the queue times/win rates reflect this.
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I never said they shouldn’t move it back. it won’t make it difference. Move it back. Alliance will still lose! We both agree the alliance suck. We both agree they should move the cave back.
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I am sorry but how is having your npc’s involved in a fight actually a benefit to the opposing faction? I mean I have asked before and it usually seems to go unanswered, why dont you use this to your advantage and push us out of your territory before you move south?
Would you have that advantage if we met in the middle of the map or we just waited for you to enter our territory only to repel you before we moved up? We have only been doing that for fifteen years and you guys still do not seem to get it.
The rational explanation is you guys have a more direct and easier path to Drek since forever as our base is tiered while yours is condensed, which more often then not lead to zerg wins. This has conditioned the alliance to think you are the offensive faction as opposed to the defensive faction, so you do not play defensive, even when it is obviously to your advantage.
I still do not get how so many people can be lead so far astray. Herd mentality at its finest.
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All of this is due to the map imbalance.
Horde and Alliance are both the same species. We’re all human beings. One side isn’t inherently better at pushing keys on their keyboard than the other.
Most Alliance players that PUG AV are losing EVERY SINGLE GAME they’ve played for weeks. This causes a cascade effect of apathy and that’s exactly why no one cares and AFKs out of this nightmare scenario.
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The horde cave is absolutely messed up… but the real problem plaguing alliance is that 10 or 15 people afk every game.
You forget IB… 3 afk level 50’s could hold that …
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The horde players are better. The skilled pvpers largely went horde. om private servers, many went alliance for some reason.
I bet most of those in PUG games, with the exception of the few high rankers willing to PUG occasionally, are in a PVE spec, or some Meme spec. I’d also bet that most of them are also the Lone Wolf types, not wanting to work as a team. Many of them could care less about PVP, and only want to get Exaulted with as little effort as possible.
If that’s not you then dont get offended. Do what’s needed and figure out who you need to talk with to join one or more of the AV discords.
The only concern should be the start of each cave to the opposing factions boss, everything else is irrelevant. I mean ffs, we meet in your territory, you have the advantage of your npcs, you even ambush us at Bal on occasion but fail to follow through on sensible strategies, like making sure your territory is completely cleared out and or not sending smaller counter strikes trying to attain IBGY.
The most sensible strategy to me as alliance would be to push us back on the initial push and continue to defend shgy. At the same time you should have some stealth move up towards ibgy and cap after our first rezz, that way every one that you kill from then on rezzes in our cave. You can clear us out and move up from there to support IBGY, capping IBT and Galv whenever.
But you typically do not do these things. GY value is so undervalued, once you lose shgy it is all down hill for you from there as that iwb choke is a ***** for you. Once we lose ibgy, getting back onto offense is a ***** for us as the ibt/gy choke is impossible to get through.
So yeah, work with what you have to your advantage, which you guys never do.
I would agree if the distance from the cave to the opposing faction bosses were different. If this is the case, then I would agree. As I see if, where we meet, basically at or slightly after Bal is an advantage to you if you desire to pvp. You have the added bonus of npc agro, whether intentional or not. That alliance chooses not to take advantage of this is certainly not the horde’s fault.
Again, I would be all for them moving the cave back if the distances to the boss were different. I am also for fixing any sort of unintended terrain or pull/agro management exploit. What I am not for is making changes based on bad strategies, blaming non issues.
1 Like
Developers need to address 3 main things.
1- AFK/Bots, we are reporting them but nothing really happens. They should be investigated and if found AFK many times, should be demoted to Private.
2- The back door to Dun Baldar, you can Walk up to the Base from outside just behind the South Bunker.
3- The Horde Base, I will agree need to be moved further back. I played 9 AV today all were losses all were lost the same exact way.
Now, I do not blame the layout so much as the fact that Alliance seems to not be prepared to fight IMO. Yes there are those that do and genuinely Try don;t get me wrong not everyone is clueless. But in the majority, lets just say that it leaves much to be desired.
The Alliance was not able to Cap a Single GY in all 9 games, maybe in two of them we capped a Tower from Iceblood. That is it.
By the time we arrive at SH, everything else is already contested. And form then on the alliance is just pushed back SH lost SP lost Base lost Van dead.
Omajingoro,
Why does almost every AV pug end in a complete blowout by the Horde? It’s hardly ever even close. Almost every single AV match ends in the Alliance defending DB. Your argument comes back to the “basically all Alliance players suck” argument which is a fallacy.
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You get it to a degree. The fact that the alliance refuses to defend their territory with the aid of the npcs logically leads to them getting smashed mid field more often then not, pug vs pug. They just make bad strategical choices, which means their pvp ability is probably poor as well.
Once again, I find it funny that this topic (Horde starting cave location) only became a hot (read: frequent) topic AFTER Blizzard announced the recent changes to AV.
Before the changes, when Horde complained about premades, all alliance said was “lolz git gud, reroll, go back to retail, you deserve it for P2 etc.”
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Because even though the gates may open 40v40 it doesn’t end up that way by the time both forces meet. As you said, lots of alliance AFK. 35 > 20.
Even if the Horde cave was equidistant to the Alliance cave it doesn’t change the above fact.
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1.12 stayed for literally 1 month in vanilla
Also most people didnt even have epics back then.
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My argument is that your strategy is not sound. If I was alliance, I would be imploring everyone to play defense and move slowly. Unfortunately like I posted earlier, you guys always won the zerg race, even before the bubble pull. I feel this lead to you guys thinking ‘this is how we win easiest’ and that eventually became ‘this is how we win’.
So instead of being methodical and strategic, you have been conditioned to not take advantage of what is given. Such as meeting the horde in your territoy and playing defense, pushing us out. Countering horde push with strategic caps og gy’s, controlling rezz points which is so damn important is this particular bg, and AB and EoS. Not so much wsg as one can not control the other.
So often I have seen you guys rush to our base, cap the RH and the two towers, then move on Drek. Totally ignoring ibt, ibgy, tp, fwgy. Then the horde will recall or zerg you back and you have no way of reinforcing your push AND you have managed to lose shgy. None of this is good and the starting points of the cave have nothing to do with it.
So yeah, your strategy has been been bad for the better part of 15 years as I have won the majority of my av’s even in the past when we played solid defense. ‘This is known’ on horde side by many, the way we win if playing good defense. I do not see why it would not be the same for you…
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Blizzard does not possess the ABILITY to do anything right anymore, and never will again.
I’ll see you in the shadows 
When you have pug alliance starting with 20 people or less,. the last thing in your mind is the horde cave is too far forward.
One problem gets fixed and others rise to the surface
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Horde attack from the back of Balinda’s bunker. Where is the NPC support? Archers are not hitting you there and lieutenants are on the other side of the bunker.
Alliance are conditioned to rush for a few reasons, but one of them is the mid map disadvantages. Defending at stone hearth is shooting themselves in the foot since it’s inevitable they will lose their foothold there and they are pinned behind stone hearth then.
IF alliance get an offensive push going and can grab another GY south of stone hearth, they stand a better chance, but there’s where the plan falls apart. Horde reach stone hearth at the same time, shutting down our offense. If we get any through, they are too few to withstand the horde on that side of the map. It’s a total uphill battle for alliance to win a defensive game so they try something that has a higher success rate, rushing.
As long as horde can zug zug stone hearth, alliance are forced on defense at their worst foothold and with little or no offense to pull horde players back to defense and get some breathing space to mount a strong enough offense to make a difference.
It’s not a matter of horde being better or alliance being bad. It’s a tried and true tactic that works to the advantage of horde.
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