No Rational Explanation For AV Win %

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
343

Sure, maybe they can evict the horde but the damage is done. Those officers have been pulled and killed since they go down easily. SHB is pretty much as close to IBGY as SHGY so once the horde are in there you have trouble getting them out before they cap it.

Now you’re pushing back-and-forth in the mid and the horde is already ahead in points. Sure, maybe you can push them back to IBGY but then that superior choke makes it difficult to push any further.

In the end there are certainly further problems since that bit of a head start shouldn’t cause the alliance to lose nearly all battles. You’d expect the horde to capture a few more wins because of it but not all of them. But all possible imbalances should be tackled and map differences are the easiest: switch up the starts randomly.

Then we can look to thornier and more complex issues to address.

The alliance definitely should not take it. Then people dying will be split between SFGY and SHGY which will make it easier for each group to be killed by a concentrated force. Also, this will ease up on the choke at SHGY and basically give SHGY to the horde as well as let them past to get further northern objectives. Now it’s a race and the horde have a big head start.

Although it would be good if there was enough coordination to not only take SFGY and SHGY to double up on rezzing but also use that to push hard. Each group should head towards each other and link up before heading south. That way they could use their higher numbers to push past the defender south. Still, it will be tricky to do this and hold both gy, as well as defend against people heading north.

344

Obviously it’s true that the people who can’t handle losing at PvP chose Horde as their faction more often. Hence, the state of AV now. BG queue times validate this fact.

345

Games I played no one ever backdoors into alliance. Alliance never defends, lots of afkers.

Also alliance has easier path into horde base, no choke point like bridge. Which today alliance doesn’t defend.

346

Lol ive tried about 10 Avs since the premade ban ( and i do think the premade AV thing shouldnt have existed in the first place) and they have all been terrible. All Defeats. 3 cave spawn camps and 7 just brutal loses. I mean it happens and it sucks. Im not entirely sure if its just the players arent that great or if this form of AV is just that one sided. After ive concluded i can gain more honor from Wpvp. i for one have instead put the ban hammer on AV and turned to Scrounging the world for some fun. 10/10 wont be going back.

347

So you don’t play, and are posting on a 120, so stick to retail. You have ZERO clue what you are talking about, and have proven as much by the way you babble on.

You act like starting on the defensive, on the side with poor choke points (SP and DB are NOT good choke points, because you can hit them from all sides), is some sort of advantage.

Hint: It’s not.

EDIT: Also, you say that frostwolf keep is “easy to get into”. It isn’t. You obviously don’t know what it’s like trying to ride through a tiny space while eating frost traps/blizzard and every aoe in the game all at the same time, all the while, the flag that you say “just ride to” is is in a defensive position in the back, across a bridge, and a dip in the ground. Not to mention, ALL of this, is defended behind the best choke point in the game, with no way to get around it.

Also, if you fail to see how moving the cave back will help, you obviously have never tried to take IBGY when the horde reinforcements who die at Sh are only 10 seconds away from you at their cave. When horde take SH, it is easily more than a minute to get back to it from our cave.

348

Immediate control of 2/3rds of the map.

IBGY is the best choke in the game, with the highest NPC density and archer support.

IBGY can only be reached by Alliance that first have to wipe Horde at SHGY, and then multiple times handle respawners that have an easy flank since the Horde GY lets you leave from both directions.

Horde can prevent Alliance from even getting an offense, and getting any flanking set up since it’s easy to fan out and surround the Alliance that are basically coming out of a choke point at SHGY.

Alliance enters IBGY through a choke, goes to defend SHGY if taken through a choke. Rezzes at SH and SP in chokes, SP being a choke that Horde can surround from above in every direction. Reaching SH from the cave takes twice as long as reaching IB- so Horde have a considerably easier time trying to take it back if Alliance ever do manage to reach it.

This leads to a situation where Alliance have a considerably harder time both taking every single objective in the middle chunk of the map, but also in keeping every single objective there. It’s further compounded by how easy it is to prevent Alliance trying to go on offense from being able to- since from SP, AS and the cave the only way to get to offense is through a choke point with perfect sight for Horde at SH, and no sight for Alliance going up the ramp.

Meanwhile, if Alliance were to try to blockade IBGY, it’s considerably easier to get by since the choke is after the blockade not before it, you can either go by IBT or by the IBGY rez point, both sides have about equal vision, and perhaps most importantly- if you fail, it takes half as long to get back to IBGY to try to pass it again.

It’s so heavily stacked there’s really no excuse, and the only fix is to have us switch sides. Horde shouldn’t have any complaints with that- after all Horde think the map is balanced.

349

Every single time in the last few days that my AV groups have capped SFGY, the Horde have mass zerged to try and take it back.

Every. Single. Time.

Sometimes we held them off, sometimes we didn’t. But they never, ever, failed to attack it repeatedly, usually rising to the tune of anywhere from 15 people to the entire team, after the first few small groups found we had it well defended.

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350

Players created issue isnt hard at all to explain. Like every single issue pvp has had so far its created by the toxic “elite” alliance players that seem allergic to playing the game fairly and only seek ways to break the system to their advantage.

Stop blaming horde or even Blizzard, its not their fault if all the best pvper of your faction all left AV to jump on the WSG scouting bandwagon.

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351

Is this classic char better for you? I used the other to prove a point to another alliance deflecting like you are here in another thread so let me clear it up for you. I am not playing retail nor am I playing classic atm. I have 3 lvl 60’s in classic on 2 accounts, fyi.

You act like starting on the defensive, on the side with poor choke points (SP and DB are NOT good choke points, because you can hit them from all sides), is some sort of advantage.

I am saying a defensive position w/ gy’s and npcs is ALWAYS an advantage. Some better then others. I understand your choke is behind the gy at shgy and neither do either of your towers support the GY. It is not ideal, however it is better to win the encounter then being on offense or even meeting mid, as far as having closest support via gy rezz and whatever npc’s you can incorporate into battle.

I keep asking the question but is never answered by alliance, ‘if you cant stop the horde while you have the defensive advantage, how will you be able to beat them in mid OR in their territory when they have the defensive advantage?’ Conveniently no one ever responds because once you say you can win a mid battle, your whole argument of map imbalance implodes.

Also, you say that frostwolf keep is “easy to get into”. It isn’t. You obviously don’t know what it’s like trying to ride through a tiny space while eating frost traps/blizzard and every aoe in the game all at the same time, all the while, the flag that you say “just ride to” is is in a defensive position in the back, across a bridge, and a dip in the ground. Not to mention, ALL of this, is defended behind the best choke point in the game, with no way to get around it

That is a good choke but you can actually go around the west tower and flank us. I know this as we are forced to defend zergs quite often and when we lose the gy, we experience the same choke. The GY has no actual assist from the towers, they do create a nice choke but if there is no defense you can ride right past, ride to the right of Drek bunker and drop agro, then cap the gy at you leisure. In DB one wrong step will agro additional npcs, you have little to no room to fear cap while you could easily fear cap fwrh. These defensive positions of these two gy’s have similar choke points but dbas is much more defensible then fwrh.

Also, if you fail to see how moving the cave back will help, you obviously have never tried to take IBGY when the horde reinforcements who die at Sh are only 10 seconds away from you at their cave. When horde take SH, it is easily more than a minute to get back to it from our cave.

Have you capped sfgy prior to taking ibgy? If not, why? Is it perhaps the zerg meta that has still infected the non zerging pugs?

I really dont care if the cave is moved back, I honestly think you guys have bigger problems then just the location of the cave and imo your post supports my position.

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352

Yeah I suppose the ‘meta’ is always changing. I am curious, when we are capping sfgy, are we trying to cap shgy too? If so is it getting capped too? If it is and the focus of the alliance is simply shgy and sfgy, this would indicate a larger problem then simply map position of cave spawn point.

It says to me a couple of things, you actually have less people actively playing due to being demoralized and or the quality of the pvp’rs in question is sub par compared to the horde because of the alliance premades have shifted to wsg. If the strength of the teams were equal, you would have the defensive advantage at shgy based soley on the gy zerg rush aspect alone. You should be able to hold it with a smaller force and in turn be able to send a larger force to hold sfgy.

Since you cant seem to, as I said, there must be other issues.

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353

If you really think this is a trait of “Alliance” players, I have some really bad news for you relating to your hobby of playing online games.

I absolutely 100% expect that if the situations had been reversed it would have been Horde players doing the exact same things they complain about Alliance players doing, and vice versa.

Me, I have zero salt about it, because I -am- the player you seem to think I’m complaining about.

354

I think there’s a lot going on, and while people tend to try and fixate on one thing, that’s because it’s easier to handle a problem if you zero in on one factor. It’s just human nature.

Honestly though, a lot of the people playing AV aren’t pugs per se - they’re former premade players. I’d hazard that the majority of Alliance who were regularly running AV were in at least one discord, because they were just that easy to join. I know my guild’s advice to players wanting to AV was to join one, with offers to get them invites, etc.

I also think that we’ve seen a lot of the elite Horde players switch to doing a lot more WSG, and not just because I see them in there when I’m doing WSG premades, but also because of the surge in complaining on the forums about WSG premades from pugs of both sides. I’ve also seen some seriously soup-sandwich Horde play in AV, at times, compared to how Horde tended to play at the height of the premades. (That said, this doesn’t mean the Alliance beat them, because sometimes the Alliance is even more ate up than Horde in that sense).

I do think though that it’s very easy for things to fall apart for Alliance in AV, and there’s definitely a strong tendency to simply fixate on getting what honor one can. I see way too many people just semi-afking behind a big fight to leech honor without contributing, for one, but there’s also the relentless fixation on ignoring the battle and killing lieutenants for bonus honor, for instance.

And yes, in one of the few rare pug matches that I’ve won in, we were able to successfully transition from SHGY to SFGY. That said, there’s also way way more to winning than just doing that. I’d also argue that it’s a somewhat suboptimal strategy overall, but that it’s one that has a higher chance of being executed successfully by a random pug group.

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355

I agree, the horde 100% would be doing exactly what the alliance are currently and much like the alliance it would just be a segment of the population. That being said, it really is the biggest factor you guys are facing as to why you are not winning. The best geared players are now in wsg farming pugs there.

I am all for shifting the cave, hell I wouldnt mind playing the other side of the map as a challenge, considering the state we are currently in. However since we are not there, I am not really sure how you guys are going to overcome your top pvp’rs, in as far as gear goes all being in wsg now nor how you can overcome the non existent morale that was caused by the segregation of premade and pug in av in the first place.

356

My preferred solution is that they give us the original AV, and/or make BGs server only (or at least shift the Battlegroups to be separated into ones that are more balanced in terms of player PVP activity, which is closer to the Vanilla cross-realm version, unlike this mess of a region-wide one).

357

Not a fan of the crbg’s myself. On a semi balanced realm, I get punished with a longer queue. Not to mention it does not foster any sense of community or responsibility for one’s actions or lack thereof. One of the major reasons I am not playing.

358

Yeah, I get that. Server-only BGs would actually hurt me in that I play on a server that has a higher Alliance population, even in PVP (I think our Horde side is maybe half to a third the size of the Alliance), so I would end up with queues. And that’s fine with me, because to me the best part of classic is the sense of community within your own servers. We had a blast with wpvp despite that, because you got to know people, and that sense of familiarity meant something. Crossrealming everything takes all that away in a bunch of faceless and forgettable mixing.

359

When I say boss, I mean Drek and Vann.

360

70+ games in this week and not a single win. Not even close to a win

361

Just stop playing. I find that if something bothers me, I step away from it and things get better.

362

That is a lie, if Horde wants alliance to Cap SF they would not send all of the force to SF when we manage to contest it. SF is a crucial part of Horde’s Strategy. Without SF horde doe snot push Balinda nor SH most of the time.

When Alliance will understand that Taking SF is the way to Win, it will start doing so, the attempt to reverse psychology may work on some but not on all :wink:

What makes you lucky, is that Alliance doe snot want to Fight. This is right now the biggest issue.

Alliacne is Lazy, or is being manipulated to be lazy by those who always push at the beggining of the game.

“PUSH SH HARD LEFT AND ON TO IBGY”

Then all listen follow and die, sometimes before IB GY sometimes at IBgy, as you very well know.

In the mean time Horde contests SF…of course. And then half the force pushes on SH, and the other half attacks Balinda, or often will now Push very hard on SH take it and then get Balinda and push north to SP.

The Horde’s Strategy is not hard to see. You advance step by step, and you do it well. Contest Defend Cap advance, patrol and recap as needed.

The alliance is simply not accustomed to this for some reason. Maybe it is the 10+ years of Retail?

It certainly looks like Many alliance plays in Classic are retail Players who never played Vanila… I cannot explain the low percentage of Alliance which seem to remember how to Win AV and ant to Win AV by Fighting otherwise.

Most seem to want to Win by not fighting and just killing NPC’s…