The people who are hardcore ranking, do not know how to pvp lmfao
Then why did they beat horde 99% of the time, but Alliance pugs can’t?
because they have gear, they were winning with less than 15 hks lol they killed drek before your trinket cast could go off
So how does having them in the pug games not help again?
It’s a disadvantage because Alliance starts the game behind the curve. For you to win the game, all you have to do is take one single graveyard that is right in front of you at the start. You start the match with Alliance pushed back to their last resort position. Once SHGY falls, there is almost no way to recover.
On the other hand, Alliance is expected to defeat you at our GY, then defeat your reinforcements further away, then defeat your reinforcements again in FOS, then again before IBGY etc. There is a clear and overwhelming advantage for the Horde here. At this stage of battle you start with the key to victory. What does Alliance get for overpowering you multiple times? We get IBGY which is surrounded by towers and reinforced by your bonus midfield gy (the cave).
About the cave spawn, I’ve read it somewhere but I can’t confirm and can’t seem to find anything that says how many people spawn anywhere but at any rate, it’s still a bonus GY that gives you a reinforcement advantage on defense.
I’m not interested in comparing DBAS with IBGY those two are completely irrelevant to each other and are involved in completely different stages of the game. You can’t deflect from the insane advantage that IBGY gets by having a spawn point half the distance that it is supposed to be at (cave to IBGY vs SPGY to SHGY). Defending at this stage of the game is clearly better for you.
FWGY is one of the worst. I don’t deny that. But it is still better than SHGY and SPGY where Alliance spawn in a crevice to get murdered on the way out. At least at FWGY when you talk about surrounding you literally mean surrounding, and that’s a lot more difficult to do than to simply farm everyone on the way out of SH and SP GY.
snow next to our gate so you can just completely jump over our fence.
I see this comment a lot. When the lower village actually matters then you can complain. Until then, having an easy way into some useless flavour structures is irrelevant. Your actual base for comparison to DB is the upper part guarded by two towers on top of a hill.
Same can be said of spgy, you can support from your cave and base
Just like you said before, Horde will also approach FWGY in an open field that’s difficult to defend. But, they will do it from two sides. How about for SPGY? Cave spawns come in from the back and either drop into the death trap that is the SPGY spawn, or drop into the road that is where a constant stream of Horde from SHGY are coming from. On the DB side, the Alliance are now betrayed by their own bridge and have to beat the Horde back accross it.
Sounds an awful lot like RH, again compare apples to apples. Is the distance from our cave to RH more or less then the distance you have to travel from your cave to shgy?
This is completely irrelevant. At this point if we are capping RH, it’s is either a race to see who kills the boss faster or you have lost. At any rate that is the end of the game not the beginning. You aren’t addressing the issue with Alliance defending or attacking SHGY here at all. In your mind, is it fair that if Alliance lose their FIRST gy in the game, that they should be put in an unrecoverable position?
dbas should energize you in your last line of defense
Energize us to do what? Lose slower? There is no recovery option here. We can’t hide a bunch of defenders in Van’s room the way you can so once we lose DBAS we have to defeat the entirety of the Horde only to have to deal with the issues I’ have already laid out with recovering SPGY and then SHGY.
This is proportional, you should always be able to defend with less, that you need to split forces to account for the back door should not matter as you should have the appropriate amount of defense regardless of where it coming from.
Split defense and have an offense? How on earth are we going to accomplish anything? What is our goal supposed to be here? I didn’t bother going into detail about FWK or DB because at that point that you’re bottled up there, it’s over anyway and any advantages or disadvantages don’t affect the outcome of the game.
If you still think the Alliance has the map advantage then all hope is lost.
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Come on now, shgy is not a lock, it certainly puts those of you who end up rezzing behind the cap at a disadvantage of trying to recap but hey, thats what happens to outgunned defenses. It happens to us too, just at different locations and times on the map. Once we lose RH, you can turn our base choke against us much like we iwb becomes a choke for you. This is why you have to compare apples to apples and those apples do not happen at the same time/location, which is why your faction perceives the imbalance.
I can see you do not want to compare apples to apples, nor do you apparently consider appropriately times caps and reinforcements a thing. I am not really sure how to respond to you because I feel like Ill be wasting my time.
i feel that, if games were closer to 50/50, more alliance would be willing go into AV thus increasing overall moral + it would lower horde queue times as well. win win. sadly, this isn’t the case. 
Come on now, shgy is not a lock, it certainly puts those of you who end up rezzing behind the cap at a disadvantage of trying to recap but hey, thats what happens to outgunned defenses. It happens to us too, just at different locations and times on the map. Once we lose RH, you can turn our base choke against us much like we iwb becomes a choke for you. This is why you have to compare apples to apples and those apples do not happen at the same time/location, which is why your faction perceives the imbalance.
It is absolutely a lock. Only a miracle or extreme organization can break it. I’m not talking about premade vs pug. That’s not how the game should be balanced. No pug group can retake SHGY once they’re bottled into the north.
And again, RH is not comparable. For us to get to that point where we get to turn your base into a choke. We had to beat you multiple times in FOS, hold you back in IBGY where we are at a huge disadvantage, take FWGY, then beat you out of FWK.
The equivalent scenario using your own comparison, Would be if Alliance started the game right next to RH.
I can see you do not want to compare apples to apples, nor do you apparently consider appropriately times caps and reinforcements a thing. I am not really sure how to respond to you because I feel like Ill be wasting my time.
I’m not going to compare nodes on your arbitrary terms. If you can’t argue against any of the points I have made without trying to change the subject, then I’ll assume you agree that this map massively favours Horde.
The bottom line, is that the horde side of the map was nerfed and Blizzard tried to fix the backdoor into the Alliance base in later expansions.
People who are still trying to say that the Horde don’t have the advantage, are nuts.
I’m not going to compare nodes on your arbitrary terms. If you can’t argue against any of the points I have made without trying to change the subject, then I’ll assume you agree that this map massively favours Horde.
Rank you gy’s in terms of how defensible they are from most to least for each faction please. Then look closer at the map, the chokes they create, the time it takes to support the cap from closest reinforcing gy.
If you do this honestly, you may look at AV in a different light, I know I have. I am not so sure moving our cave will solve anything for you. If you cant beat us consistently in your territory with the obvious advantages, what makes you think it will happen when we meet on neutral territory. I mean you keep saying you lose shgy so easily right?
If this is truly the case, then moving the tunnel back will have you die in mid and then again at shgy when you rezz. How is this actually any better for you? The logic does not compute…
It is so obvious your problems lie in the fact the alliance who are ranking has completely screwed you by queue hopping along with being unable to strategically plan appropriately. I am sorry, the map is not your guy’s problem.
While the map does favor the horde overall I think that classic has a few other compounding problems as far as bg’s go. You just have to look at the que times to consider that the horde has 0 people in their bg that are super casual. You pretty much have to have a 2 hour window if you want to do an AV as a horde as well as be willing to interrupt whatever else your doing half way through your play window.
I think if you were to compare the overall gear level, profession min maxing, and even class makeup of the average alliance vs horde makeup you would find it favors the horde. In vanilla I think it was likely far more balanced or favoring the alliance. In vanilla, at least as far as I recall, alliance had far more raid groups overall than the horde giving the alliance in general a gear edge over the horde.
The alliance have a back door too but do not need to use it because it is stupidly easy to get into our base, cap RH and then cap towers at your leisure. Our whole lower level is irrelevant unless you happen to get dismounted while we typically have to clear the majority of your npc’s.
Id vote for moving the cave back just to see how it plays out but by the responses here I am not sure how it would actually make a difference. If you cant stop us in your own territory, how do you propose to stop us in mid or in our territory?
The logic does not make sense to me. Once I looked at the gy’s by comparing how they are defended at the start of the game, it becomes clear to me it was by design and if this is the case, you cant compare shgy, imo the second hardest alliance gy to defend to the horde’s easiest gy to defend, ibgy.
The two easiest gy’s to defend, ibgy and dbas just happen to take place at different spots on the map and therefore at different times in the game. You guys just do not look deep enough, which is why you are having such a hard time.
This has been brought up but your biggest problem is segregation, not the map. Hopefully they have fixed the av premade and eventually the wsg premade dodging so that the alliance pushing rank can not screw over their own faction and AV balances out with skill level of pvp. This in turn should help morale and lessen the amount of afk you have, unfortunately this will take time to fix.
I really feel bad for you guys, the deck is stacked.
Rank you gy’s in terms of how defensible they are from most to least for each faction please. Then look closer at the map, the chokes they create, the time it takes to support the cap from closest reinforcing gy.
Right here:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/request-to-revert-av-to-an-older-version/432685
If you do this honestly, you may look at AV in a different light, I know I have. I am not so sure moving our cave will solve anything for you. If you cant beat us consistently in your territory with the obvious advantages, what makes you think it will happen when we meet on neutral territory. I mean you keep saying you lose shgy so easily right?
Your cave is literally a bonus graveyard in the middle of the map. It is a massive advantage. You should be spawning all the way back at FWGY after IB is taken. Moving it won’t make Alliance win all the time, but I don’t need it to. I just want the game to be fair.
There you go talking about obvious advantages for Alliance. I have yet to be convinced of any useful ones.
It is so obvious your problems lie in the fact the alliance who are ranking has completely screwed you by queue hopping along with being unable to strategically plan appropriately. I am sorry, the map is not your guy’s problem.
Alliance pugs have been outplaying Horde pugs over the last few days and even with better organization, there is no winning against the brain-dead zerg strategy that you get to use. This isn’t comparable at all.
You should be interested in playing a fair game for the fun of it. As far as I can tell. You and the rest of the Horde are satisfied with this handholding crap and think you somehow deserve just by your choice of character.
Anyone with half a brain can see how biased this map is. Read the thread I linked you. I made it a while ago, so I know what it says. If you still are convinced that the Horde are at a disadvantage then you are hopeless and I am clearly wasting my time.
I completely agree with you. The Horde should be winning a lot more than the Alliance. However, they should not be winning 100% of games and they should not be winning against organized groups.
All of those things add up to a large advantage, not complete and utter destruction ever single time.
So you refuse to discuss how things are and instead want to discuss how things were. You are not taking a fair look at the gy’s, you can not compare the easiest defended horde gy vs the alliances second easiest defended gy.
No sense continuing this with you.
Only an idiot could have a 100% win rate and say “I’m the who is disadvantaged.”
Enjoy your free wins.
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You really do not think the alliance premades have not had more affect on alliance win rate then the map? Is it not possible the better pvp’rs and others who might be somewhat better leaders are in premades and have left the pugs w/ less experience all around?
You really think moving the horde tunnel will change all of this for you? I am not even playing, ‘free wins’ are not a motivation for me. I am hoping you might see things from a different perspective which might give you fresh insight on how you might improve your win rate.
I am honestly spending hours here while not playing at all because I enjoy strategy talk and I genuinely want to help you. I do not think what your own faction has done to you is honorable or right, simple as all that.
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That’s how I felt during the heavy use of premade teams in AV. No matter how hard I and other tried the match would end in 8 minutes after a 30 minute queue. Trying to convince Horde pugs to just defend instead of chase and use that trinket to recall just like the Alliance can, was pointless. Grab quick honor, yell at each other and then wait to lose while literally telling people to kill themselves, this is why we lose.
Now I don’t mind fighting Alliance in the current AV, because they now start fully manned. Their strategy’s need to evolve so they win more but as they gain the experience they will start to win. Latest strategy you guys are trying is sit at SHGY ambush out and farm Horde and then recall and summon your druids to get Ivus out into the field.
In my last 5 match’s, I’ve seen this strategy and only once has Ivus made it to be summoned and Alliance screwed Horde by keeping Primlist busy and killed her. But Horde are quick to adapt, we know what our Ice Lord is capable of so we quickly abandoned our defense and went pure offense to stay out of Ivus way and started moving north for a quick win.
War is about adopting new strategy’s on the fly. Something premade and Horde seem to be able to do, not so much from what I observe from Alliance pugs.
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Which will not result in a win since alliance STILL has to get south to capture a GY and they can’t do so if the horde has them bottled up at that choke. Great, so the horde get to kill a bunch of alliance, officers, and SHB while the alliance get to kill nothing while defending SHGY and IWB.
If alliance do manage to break past the horde forces they’ll generally do it in very low numbers and horde dying north at the IWB choke will rez and pretty easily wipe the alliance taking objectives.
The only thing that could mess this up is if horde are silly enough to cap SFGY and rez there. AND if alliance aren’t dumb enough to try to take it themselves.
So yeah, fighting at the IWB/SHGY choke isn’t really an advantage for the alliance. It’s a delaying tactic to try if you’re able to get the bulk of your forces south to cap IBGY and gain that choke. Then you try to kill a bunch of horde at the northern choke to slow the race to the bosses and you try to hold on to a southern GY. It usually doesn’t work.
Which will not result in a win since alliance STILL has to get south to capture a GY and they can’t do so if the horde has them bottled up at that choke. Great, so the horde get to kill a bunch of alliance, officers, and SHB while the alliance get to kill nothing while defending SHGY and IWB.
I do not understand why you do not understand if the alliance can not evict the horde from their territory, the problem is greater then the map. All things being equal, the gy zerg defense and the added dps of the npc’s should give you an advantage on defense. Since this seems to not be the case and apparently you can not evict us, either you do not have the proper amount of defense OR the premades has left the pugs with lesser pvp talent in whatever form it actually takes.
If alliance do manage to break past the horde forces they’ll generally do it in very low numbers and horde dying north at the IWB choke will rez and pretty easily wipe the alliance taking objectives.
So the objective should be controlling gy’s then until your force is sufficiently reinforced before you down other objectives. There are multiple ways of doing this, again if you can not seem to do this, then there is another issue. It certainly is not the map, if you look at gy defense from start of the game and which are the most defensible vs least defensible, you will find ibgy is the horde’s most well defended gy while shb is not. On the other hand you will find the alliance’s is dbas while the horde fwrh is not. Do you think this might affect the dynamic of the game and how it plays out from start to finish?
The only thing that could mess this up is if horde are silly enough to cap SFGY and rez there. AND if alliance aren’t dumb enough to try to take it themselves.
I agree with you here, it seems to me it might be beneficial for the alliance to begin taking sfgy again. It seems the Drek bubble meta conditioned you guys to stop capping it. It surprised me when i started playing, I was always commenting, wtf why are not we capping shgy? We started capping sfgy in many games and continually lost bunker caps at shb and iwb, meanwhile in chat you would get yelled at if you suggested capping the gy. It was like the twilight zone.
So yeah, fighting at the IWB/SHGY choke isn’t really an advantage for the alliance. It’s a delaying tactic to try if you’re able to get the bulk of your forces south to cap IBGY and gain that choke. Then you try to kill a bunch of horde at the northern choke to slow the race to the bosses and you try to hold on to a southern GY. It usually doesn’t work.
I understand this, it signifies to me a larger problem at play then simply moving the tunnel back. It signifies the horde are consistently a superior force, how is moving the cave going to address that?