Because you have that handy little choke point at SHGY that you are fully aware of, so I don’t know why I need to repeat myself to you so many times.
Look up phyrric victory and then we can have a conversation
Every single time we could win, but it was not worth the effort. Rep was tapped, honor was tapped, might get 600 more honor for over 30 minutes but ain’t no one care about that.
You are basically saying “hey, why don’t you prolong this game for 4 times as long, not enjoy it at all, just to be able to say “you won”” sounds like a stupid decision to me
Not sure why you horde keep talking about fault as if it matters to the outcome, less alliance bothering to PvP, less horde getting to PvP. If I had to guess horde want to PvP more than alliance do, so you telling the alliance to change just makes lots of us go “nah fam, I got shakira booty to enjoy instead”
Can you please make those lines go from the tunnel to the end game boss using the intended most direct route please? I think it is more then likely they are going to be very close. If they are they should stay the same way and you guys should adapt. If it is found the alliance have longer to travel, I am all for moving the tunnel back.
Quite frankly using my fingers to measure the distance the ally have to horde base looks to be about the distance the horde need to go to spgy. From there your 20% difference looks to be horde moving from spgy to db.
Premade have done more damage to pugs then the map has ever done. All of your failures in AV are of your own making.
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Uh, so move up and support other objectives and recall back if and when necessary? Defense isnt about being static, everything about pvp is dynamic, even defense.
Appreciate your post regardless, at least some alliance realize that there is plenty of non sense in this thread.
On both sides, I can recognize that the average horde player is better, has PvP racials, and that the map favors them, while also recognizing that most alliance just don’t care about winning. They want their honor/rep and to avoid PvP as much as possible because they don’t like it.
Much of the alliance that enjoy PvP a little got scorched earthed off the servers and so a lot of what is left is people in PvP for PvE rewards.
Again, it is not one thing, it is a combination of factors from BOTH sides that has created the current situation. Adults can focus on the issues with a compromise.
For 15 years, when I play, I am the first to get on someone who is even remotely close to sfgy. Playing a two front AV has always seemed to benefit us because you guys can not seem to allocate forces correctly.
I am sorry pvp can be a winner take all situation and that your faction has decided to segregate, this has done you all the most damage and has been covered here and elsewhere extensively. I have been trying to encourage those of you who are left to try alternate strategies, ones that I think might help you because rolling over you is not fun.
All of this is relative for us, if you all put up a better fight, games are longer and fun because they are fought tooth and nail more often then not, our faction will see comparable honor. Your faction has been able to split, the have’s and have not’s which has killed your moral because what has been left for the have not’s is a superior force in opposition.
This has created poor morale and added to an already bad situation because everyone has given up. Or you look to other excuses such as the map or racials or zug zug instead of looking at your own faction and selves as the reasons for your failures.
Sorry.
Well I tried to be reasonable and compromise with the horde. We see what happens, they double down on blaming the alliance and refuse to compromise back in any way.
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I would agree if the distance from the cave to the opposing faction bosses were different.
Proof that you agree. h ttps://i.redd.it/9qkqwlattxe41.jpg
If you’ve ever taken chemistry and studied kinetics of reactions, you would know that the rate-determining step sets the pace for how the whole reaction occurs.
Horde having a headstart by starting in a cave too far north is that step.
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Most of the people that wanted to play this game with less frustration and more rewards have faction changed to horde. So all of what you said is pointless, given that people are free to opt out of sucking with the simple swipe of a credit card.
SHGY should be your first primary defensive position, always! Once you lose it you guys are screwed because of the way you get stuck at IWB trying to recap. If it takes your whole raid to defend shgy against our whole raid, plus you have the 5 npc’s at the flag to help you plus that one close ram, then you are up against a superior force. Nothing is going to help you and you can chalk it up to rng group making and more often then not recently, your own faction’s premades.
If on the other hand all things are equal, which they very rarely are, you should be able to hold any defensive position with a smaller force, even if you have to resort to gy zerging defense. If you can not recapture lost objectives then at least try and slow the horde offense down as much as possible.
Since you should be defending with a smaller force, this means your offense should outnumber our defense. IBGY is the best defended horde gy, it is comparable to the alliance DB AS. This is a challenge for sure, once you get past IBGY you guys blow through our map whereas we blow through your map early and get tied up at DB.
Can you not see how this is basically equal? Each faction has two lightly defended gy’s and one heavily defended gy, they just happen to be at different spots on the map. And yes yes, your two lesser defensible gy’s, especially shgy can be death traps. I find if we are being farmed, leaving said gy before I rezz and running to the nearest gy to rezz makes the most sense. That sets me up to defend the next gy from the zerg, for as long as that may be.
If I were to equate gy’s defensible ability I would rate them shgy=rh, sp=fwgy and ibgy=dbas, more or less. If you want a homogenous game, I do not know what to tell you except you might be looking in the wrong place.
I honestly don’t care about the “map advantages” maybe horde does have an advantage, maybe not it does not matter to me. But I have played this game for 15 years and have seen all kinds of strats on both the Horde and Alliance sides. It’s truly unfortunately how little the Alliance care about pvp. It’s sad watching Swifty who was once a pvp god, help turn AV into this s*itshow. He promoted those premade, zerg/no pvp, win in 7 minutes with no more than 10 HKs in a games. Those ruined the game for the Alliance. The greatest advantage horde have over alliance is that we have our rankers working with pugs to actually play the game. They actually enjoy the pvp and the objectives. The Alliance are unfortunately just there for the easy honor, not the pvp. This is the bottom line and unless that changes, AV will be horde dominated. There really isn’t anything else to argue about. I guess it’s hard to see as an Alliance pug because you didn’t get to experience the abuse the Horde took while premades were such a thing. You don’t know how much of a benefit it is to have those people distributed into the pug groups. Rankers are “try hards” that use every engineering trinket, grenade sapper and FAPS to give them the upper edge in pvp. Since you don’t have these in your pugs and Horde do, you get rekt. I just put on Swifty’s stream and he’s literally alt tabed to play retail while his character sits AFK in AV. That should say everything you need to know about the status of Alliance pvp and why Horde win every game. Stop blaming the game and the devs because your faction is full of min/maxers that could not care less about the content of the game.
You’ve seen people turtle SHGY and lose. Because SHGY is undefendable its designed for horde to take advantage of from multiple sides and offers no benefit for Alliance whatsoever.
If all you are doing is turtling shgy, certainly you are going to lose. At a certain point you have to ask yourself, ‘can my team here at shgy handle this without me?’ You may find that most of your team rides off after you have cleared us out, you might ask yourself, ‘should I stay and defend or should I follow and collect hk’s?’
I am going to assume that you had to have a superior force just to hold shgy. If this is the case then you are f’d no matter what you are going to do. Thank goodness you have quick queues, curse the rng group maker or your alliance premades and make the best of the situation.
If on the other hand you have a superior force defending shgy when it is not really called for, then losing is on you.
As for choke points that you mention. Every single choke point south of SPGY faces the Alliance. Why don’t you admit that the Alliance has to be 10 more organized and better geared just to even those odds.
Actually spgy is a semi decent choke point, even though there are three other avenues (going up the hill and through your gy, going around the hill past the mine and of course going the other direction under the bridge and up to the gy) just because we tend to mainly ball up and zerg you through the direct path anyways.
Also you can clog us up at IWB, this really is a two way choke, though obviously we can drop down and bypass the whole thing, we take falling damage and become easy pick off targets. If shgy has not capped, it is unwise for us to do that so the fight is at the choke. I have often lost this cap in the past as it is easier for you to reinforce that choke point from spgy then it is for us from ibgy, albeit not that much.
I agree with you though, we have a choke advantage so do everything you can not to lose shgy and create another choke point for yourself. Until Actiblizz comes out and says they are revamping the map, what is the point of complaining? Do the best that you can, figure out a way to hold shgy while getting ibgy capped.
Once you get this down, as it has been done in the past as well as currently, everything else should be gravy as you can then just blow up our map.
I agree with you about SHGY and its what I have been saying here all along. You say that you have an advantage in the beginning and we have an advantage at our base is true. But here’s the problem. It takes until we get to a defeated position before our advantage comes into play. Yes dB is strong. There’s no denying that.
When you talk about how each side has one easily defended and one easily capture graveyard that’s where you are wrong. The problem is, all gys are more easily defended from Alliance attackers than they are horde attackers. Even fwgy is better!
Rhgy - obvious, it’s in the base like ours
Fwgy - horde approach from both their base and their cave which are on opposite sides and since the spawn is open, spawning horde can escape without being corralled like cattle.
IBGY - defended by the cave which is half as close as the spawn should be (fwgy) and also spawns 20 at a time instead of 10. It also has no choke on the horde side while horde get support of a tower to prevent Alliance from easily moving forward to repel attackers.
Sfgy - neutral, same on both sides
SHGY - open to attack from horde, spawning Alliance easily contained in a narrow niche. Once contested horde spawn closer at IBGY than Alliance at SPGY. Once controlled horde spawn directly behind it and Alliance still spawn far away at SPGY (imagine if we spawned a double the rate and half as far like you do in your cave)
SPGY -again Alliance are bottled into a small crack in the mountains, but this time horde can go up the mountain from the outside and up the side road to attack Alliance from on the nearby hills.
Asgy - flag is right in front of vans room so all the horde will always be stacked there anyway. Only advantage is more npc guards but there are multiple back doors to get to it and distract Alliance defenders at the bridge with.
So no, it’s not equal.
Edit: I argue here so that blizzard sees it and doesn’t just take what biased horde players are saying at face value.
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Another huge problem the alliance have, is that more than half of them are only there to farm rep and dont realize that sitting at shgy is the worst possible way to do that. Everyone in av, alliance side, seems to have a different reason for being there and because of that, no one is able to move forward (It certainly doesn’t help that the horde are at Balinda before we are). It is to the point now that it is not worth queuing for bgs unless you have a full premade team, which completely eliminates av now, and on some of the smaller servers, completely eliminates people from being able to pvp effectively.
it’s not great to try your hardest to win, to do ANYTHING in AV, just to see your efforts mean absolutely nothing PLUS you get the benefit of seeing absolute knobs on the forums claim you should just Try Harder. Zerging Drak was a viable strat no matter how much you may WAAAH about it unfortunately I joined late where that strategy won’t work, in my whole time playing never seen it work, because Horde will now turtle the ever loving crap out of a game thanks to the AV trinket—which is fair that’s how you deal with it same for the Alliance even if it seems the Horde can hang in Vann’s room a lot safer than Drek’s. And FYI Swifty isn’t some representation of our faction. Believe it or not there are regular folks that would want to have fun in BGs while getting decent honor.
OP racials
The problem is that av used to be same server. it is much easier to be in contact, whether it be voice chat, determining strats before queueing, etc., than it is now. It is true we have almost instant queues now, but the honor per hour is extraordinarily low, even if you compare it to wpvp. The only reason people queue for av now is to get rep, and it is excruciatingly slow because the pug groups have no idea what theyre doing and lack the basic skills to actually figure out how to win. Queuing Av now is completely cancerous when you’re in a pug group and the only way to remedy that has been taken away, thus, you’re lengthened queues. Alliance pugs also do not listen to a word that anyone says, plus there are 20+ afk in the spawn cave or leveling in the harpy cave sometimes.
I’ve said it 10 times. The problem is that Alliance rankers refuse to play with pugs. All the players who know how to pvp are playing in a group leaving all you pugs to get rekt. Blame them. Not horde.
I agree with you about SHGY and its what I have been saying here all along. You say that you have an advantage in the beginning and we have an advantage at our base is true. But here’s the problem. It takes until we get to a defeated position before our advantage comes into play. Yes dB is strong. There’s no denying that.
How is meeting basically (just short of) in your territory not a defensive advantage? If you can not defeat us there with the aid of your npc’s and gy zerg rezz ability, how can you expect to beat us on neutral territory, which will be the end result of moving the horde cave back. Also factor in unintended consequences such as moving our cave back will give us an advantage of being able to support our base faster on defense…
IBGY - defended by the cave which is half as close as the spawn should be (fwgy) and also spawns 20 at a time instead of 10. It also has no choke on the horde side while horde get support of a tower to prevent Alliance from easily moving forward to repel attackers.
Wait, what? I have been playing for 15 years off and on, I had no idea the gy’s in the tunnels spawned more rezzers then the gy’s at other locations. I would love to have a reference for this.
When you are comparing the gy, remember to compare it to DBAS gy as they are the two that are most similar. Is the distance from your tunnel to to DBAS more or less then our distance from tunnel to ibgy? We have to compare apples to apples, the strongest defenible gy’s vs each other. Not the strongest vs not the strongest.
When you talk about how each side has one easily defended and one easily capture graveyard that’s where you are wrong. The problem is, all gys are more easily defended from Alliance attackers than they are horde attackers. Even fwgy is better!
FWGY can be attacked from 360 degrees, has maybe a wolf nearby to support the lt and 4 grunts who were stupid enough to pile up the snow next to our gate so you can just completely jump over our fence. How is this not the worst defensible gy in the bg? I completely disagree with you here.
Rhgy - obvious, it’s in the base like ours
Has 0 support and is designed most like shgy, we too can be corralled. However we have to actually recall or ride back to defend this gy unless we were killed at fwgy while you start by defending yours. Since it is arguably our most important gy, I would say this is a slight disadvantage for us.
Fwgy - horde approach from both their base and their cave which are on opposite sides and since the spawn is open, spawning horde can escape without being corralled like cattle.
Same can be said of spgy, you can support from your cave and base . Dont kid yourself, flanking of fwgy rezzers is not that difficult. I would give you the nod and say you have a disadvantage on being f’d here because of the terrain at spgy favors our attack, but not by much.
SHGY - open to attack from horde, spawning Alliance easily contained in a narrow niche. Once contested horde spawn closer at IBGY than Alliance at SPGY. Once controlled horde spawn directly behind it and Alliance still spawn far away at SPGY (imagine if we spawned a double the rate and half as far like you do in your cave)
Sounds an awful lot like RH, again compare apples to apples. Is the distance from our cave to RH more or less then the distance you have to travel from your cave to shgy? While we do get some relief by recapping fwgy, this can delay or even stop us in our tracks if you are defending it much like you get choked at iwb. While we can bypass the gy and go directly to rhgy and it is very difficult for you to recap shgy through the choke, I would say this is a slight disadvantage for us as rhgy is arguably our most important gy.
SPGY -again Alliance are bottled into a small crack in the mountains, but this time horde can go up the mountain from the outside and up the side road to attack Alliance from on the nearby hills.
Ive already covered this, fwgy is more open to attack then spgy but might be slightly less vulnerable to attack when rezzing, pretty equi distant from caves and base. The terrain does favor our attack so slight disadvantage for you.
Asgy - flag is right in front of vans room so all the horde will always be stacked there anyway. Only advantage is more npc guards but there are multiple back doors to get to it and distract Alliance defenders at the bridge with.
I would have no issue with the back door being fixed, fix it on both sides because we both have them. That being said, with the amount of npc’s that are in your base compared to the amount we have at ibgy and the fact that dbas should energize you in your last line of defense while ibgy can be counter capped while we are zerging forward, I would have to say this is a disadvantage for us. Especially considering base gy’s should be considered the most important gy because, they defend two close by towers and boss.
Even with the back door, we still get attacked by archers coming in, a smaller force should be able to slow down or stop out back door crew. This is proportional, you should always be able to defend with less, that you need to split forces to account for the back door should not matter as you should have the appropriate amount of defense regardless of where it coming from.
In conclusion, after having gone through it this way with you, I might actually think the horde have a map disadvantage.