Most racial lands are neutral (or contested, as the game calls them) outside a given race’s capital and starting zone. It doesn’t stop it from being their’s, anymore than it does for Darkshore, Felwood, or Feralas.
I’d imagine 99% of Americans aren’t too keen on the idea of settling in and trying to develop Death Valley, but that doesn’t stop it from belonging to the US.
hey guys whats goin on in here… aww @#$
If we’re using that argument, then Azshara hasn’t “belonged” to the night elves since Vanilla. Valormok was around back then. If anything, the increased number of night elves there now says it still doesn’t “belong” to the Horde.
Try to clarify with Droite when it comes to this zone stuff. He likes to dance around the meta, actual gameplay and the narrative presented.
Otherwise you are just going around in circles.
Gatekeeping is never a hill that’s worth dying on.
It belonged to them (until they gave it away) as much as Durotar belonged to the Orcs, despite the former presence of Northwatch.
![:man_shrugging:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/man_shrugging.png?v=6" ":man_shrugging:")
I can’t make them update the game. Believe me, no one would have loved it more than me to see the utter destruction of Zoram’gar and Splintertree. But years-late tweets are all the update most questing zones get.
The truth is though. And it’s 100% truth that Blood Elves were in fact invented to get people who would normally play Alliance to play Horde instead. Because before if you wanted to play a conveniently “pretty” race your only option was to play the Alliance. Horde were the outcasts, yes, but being outcasts was expressed in their aesthetics of being the “ugly” races. Now there is no meaningful aesthetic differences between Horde and the Alliance. Everyone knows this to be true.
I have to point out the massive differences; Durotar had a single small corner with human soldiers living in a keep (now the ruins of a keep) used to stage assaults. Azshara had as many orcs in settlements in the zone as night elves. You could never mistake Durotar for a human-friendly area. Azshara was more the abandoned ruins that neither the Alliance nor the humans bothered with.
Well, and random mentions in novels, mission tables, offhanded notes in quests and the once-in-a-blue-moon novel reference, but I hear ya. Really wish Blizz would spend some of that Activision money to maintain their own wiki to keep all the official information together. Maybe they’d forget their own past retcons and mentions a little less often.
The story as it played out? You mean this story?
And the Rebellion? It wasn’t just Vol’jin. Sylvanas, Lor’themar, Vol’jin, Baine, Ji, Gallywix, Eitrigg, Saurfang, and Thrall all came out in the fight against Garrosh. That’s the entire leadership of the Horde that wasn’t Garrosh.
To say Garrosh and those loyal to him were the Horde when they probably weren’t even an eighth of the representation of the Horde any more is not how the story played out.
You did address the argument, though. It is unfair that the Alliance doesn’t go far enough. You’re just avoiding agreeing with the argument by repeating yourself.
And we have the meme on this forum that Warchief #5 is just going to die so that Warchief #6 can suddenly declare war and give us MoP 3.0.
That is what makes this not a victory of the Alliance. Because the victory of Siege of Orgrimmar, Varian saying:
Is hollow. Because the Alliance won’t ever end the Horde. The Alliance won’t ever actually be a threat enough to prevent the Horde from being open to the idea of attacking the Alliance. The Horde can fail to uphold honor whenever it wants without worry of repercussion. That’s what it means to not go far enough.
Though, side idea, far enough does not have to be through dismantling the Horde necessarily. The other extreme could happen as well, where the Alliance goes far enough to make the Horde a permanent ally instead. Whatever far enough is, it has to be enough to make it so the Horde never attacks the Alliance again.
Without that, winning any war is not enough.
Technical nitpick, but the Night Elves didn’t actually say they gave Azshara to the Goblins, merely that they would let them get lumber from Azshara.
Well… Yeah. That exactly. Even Garrosh acknowledges that by forming a rebellion, those people Taran Zhu is talking about aren’t a part of the Horde. It doesn’t become a politically distinct entity just because he uses a possessive to refer to it. The city I live in doesn’t change just because I refer to it as MY city. Looking at that as evidence that Garrosh doesn’t lead the “real” Horde is shallow logic.
And yet, they were still the rebellion against the warchief of the Horde. Not the Horde themselves.
This isn’t semantics. If most of the states declared their independence and the US declared them no longer part of the country as a result, they don’t suddenly get to be the country they just left. Now, if the president is impeached and they rejion the country, then they are definitely part of that country again, but the moment they left, they ceased to be.
This isn’t that difficult to understand. When the rebels left the Horde to join the rebellion, they left the Horde.
Because the context was that the Alliance never won the war because they didn’t go far enough; not whether they should have gone further. That victory is conditional on more than just… Victory.
Regardless of what happened, there would be plenty of people crapposting about how the Alliance should have done more. Regardless of what happens to the Horde, there will always be people crapposting about how it doesn’t matter, because X Y and Z means the Horde deserves it.
You know I’m right.
Then who won?
When you defeat your enemy and force a regime change, and that enemy can do nothing but take the regime change, what mythical third party won that conflict? Did the Horde win the war at the end of MoP? And IIRC, another result was the returning of claimed lands in Ashenvale (and possibly others?) as a result.
You can argue for a stalemate, but that would require arguing forcing an enemy to change their leadership through force is a mild inconvenience at best. You’re better than that.
It’s like I said before; nothing will be far enough. Alliance claim they are always on the losing end. You point out they aren’t. Well, this isn’t the way they want winning to look, so it doesn’t count. Case in point:
Which means what, exactly? Because hell, we’re already looking at a second instance where the Horde attacks itself. Short of fully disarming the Horde, what will satisfy the Alliance playerbase that the Horde won’t ever attack them again? I ask because if 9.0 comes around and the Horde is some child-state of the Alliance, you know damn well that people Ally-side will be up in arms that it’s not enough, because the Horde can just leave and attack again. And they’ll have two rebellions to back that up.
Here’s some more of how the story played out:
And the follow up text Vol’jin has to say:
No, this isn’t difficult to understand. The Alliance did not defeat the Horde as a whole. When they were able to achieve victory it was when they did not have to fight the Horde as a whole. All they had to fight was Garrrosh, and they did not have to fight any of the rest of the Horde forces and races that weren’t loyal to him, which was for all practicality was the Forsaken, Blood Elves, Trolls, Tauren Hoijin, Bilgewater, and even some Orcs.
Context? This was the context of what you were responding to:
Context is that the Alliance never gets to go far enough, and then the Horde turns around and goes further than they did before because the Alliance didn’t.
That will always be the case, yes. And I will always dismiss those people’s opinions as well. Example:
But just because there are people who would be annoying or take things too far does not mean that others who are upset that the Alliance never gets to go far enough are wrong.
Looks like the Vol’jin won to me.
Really? The Alliance forced the Horde to side with Vol’jin? I think you’re better than that.
If I had my way, the Alliance and Horde would be unified, and all players could play together. That would pretty much assure that the Horde won’t ever attack the Alliance again, and the Alliance won’t ever attack the Horde again.
Will that satisfy the Alliance playerbase? I highly doubt the Alliance playerbase as a whole would find it unsatisfying, if anything, resolves a lot of gameplay issues. If you’re talking about specifically the Alliance story fanbase? Well, obviously there are plenty who would find it unsatisfying, but that’s what I would prefer over the unsatisfactory story we’re already getting any way.
The story will repeat the alliance will win but the only thing the horde can lose is characters so they will plsy warchief tag then the horde gets a slap on the wrist and an empty threat then the as lliance can be off to unkick the puppies the horde kicked and ressurect as ll th ef parents of the orphans the hirde made.
Yes. nothing like homogenizing the three core Horde races into a nearly indistinguishable mass to really show the fundamental issues with the portrayal of the WC3 era Horde. In this sort of “Shaman Honor Horde” blob, it was ALWAYS the Orcs and their players that dominated the splotlight. Darkspear and Tauren had such a minimal presence that it was sort of a joke, and they certainly weren’t allow much more than basic aesthetic differences to let them stand out. Its sort of like Humans on the Alliance side, but at least THEY had a wider range of quest experiences.
This was a fundamental structural issue with the Horde as a faction; and that doesn’t even get into their SEVERE lack of relevance in important plot threads like: Elven Lore+Naga+Illadin; the Scourge+Arthas; the Universal Domains of Light / Arcane / Void / Death. YOUR vision of a “REAL” Horde would effectively had resulted in the faction sitting around with its thumbs up its butt for nearly every single major story since Vanilla (all while ORCS dominated what little story they did get). The addition of the Forsaken and BE was almost essential to give us any relevance.
Honestly, I’m still sort of the mind that Blizz still intends to try to foist the lions share of the blame for this conflict on Sylvanas. They will do this of course with the reveal that her motives for this conflict were never about the Horde (or perhaps even the Forsaken), but I also suspect they will attempt to make the Horde a victim of her as well in some over the top way. The chances of her being Ogmot’s Laughing Shepherd are so large right now its sort of nuts (and the Alliance really were not HER “Blind-Sheep” she’s leading over a cliff).
I expect a large death toll on the Horde side to come. Will that be satisfactory to the Alliance? Probably not. Will that satisfy the Horde loyalists? Definitely not. Will that make the Horde rebels happy? I’m … also guessing not. But, at least we’ll all be unsatisfied together.
The tagline of BfA.
Should we all throw a “we “survived” BfA” party" in Gadgetzan or Booty Bay at the end of this? I feel like both sides will have earned it by that point. We could remedy our ills and mend wounds with focusing on our new shared enemy … Blizz?
if you think about it, the kid never did anything wrong, as far as he was concerned, he was just playing with toys.
imagine being him, you are just playing with random toys and suddenly they are alive trying to eat you.
Poor kid.
The main problem with the burning of the tree was how Blizzard kept saying that the person who burnt it would be this grand mystery. Instead we got a woman being a slave to her emotions and deciding to start a war just because she didn’t like what a dying elf was saying. ![:roll_eyes:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/roll_eyes.png?v=6" ":roll_eyes:")
Anything would have been better than what we got.
It could have been a false flag attack by some unknown third party to ignite a war. It could have been Greymane selfishly sacrificing all those Night Elf lives to frame Sylvanas and provoke a war between the Alliance and Horde so he’d have the perfect chance to kill her. It could even have been a betrayer in the Horde who wanted Sylvanas to take the blame and die in battle so he could take the throne (Baine).
So many wasted opportunities.
actually, this isn’t true, the war already started, by invading ashenvale in the first place.
Should have brushed up on his Japanese folklore.