If you think she burned the Tree because of her being emotionally triggered by Summermoon, not sure what to tell you? She is portrayed as eerily calm about the decision in “A Good War” … almost like she had always expected the need for something like Teldrassil to happen to get what she wanted. Her rage in the cinematic comes more from Saurfang (and even briefly Nathanos’) confusion and hesitance to follow through with her orders (and Sylvanas is a MASSIVE control freak, and despises her authority being challenged in even small ways).
It all comes back to … what is Sylvanas trying to do with this war? What ARE her “True Objectives”? Who is meant to actually benefit from them? See … we don’t know the answers to those questions; only that whatever she has planned required a wound that would never heal to be created, to FULLY invest both factions in this war for as long as possible.
Since you’ve clearly decided that you can’t come up with a good argument to defend your point of view and instead opted for an attack on my character, it’s probably for the best we do.
Honestly, you’re trying to argue that Gasrrosh didn’t lead the Horde because after his defeat, Vol’jin and Thrall talk crap about him after the battle? You can do better than that.
My argument was that the Alliance wins in the end, and defeating Garrosh and his forces was a defeat of the Horde, yet Alliance posters will always try and find a way to make it not count.
You’re not disproving my argument. You’re reinforcing it. Even when conceeding that the Alliance maybe might have won, you’re trying to preface it with things like how it doesn’t count as the Horde because people talk crap to Garrosh about not being the true warchief, or it doesn’t count because it wasn’t enough of the Horde.
When was the entire war Cata/MoP solely about Vol’jin vs Garrosh and the Horde? I’m pretty sure his rebellion didn’t kick off until the second half of MoP. Y’know, patch 5.3. How is he the victor in a war he only gathered allies to assist the Allies in fighting?
You’re saying that if the Alliance hadn’t involved themselves, Vol’jin would still have won the war, in spite of Vol’jin saying they would lose without the Alliance’s help?
You’re right. I’m definitely better than that. I’m also aware that forcing a regime change is not the same as picking the leader. I think you are too.
Thought you were done, dude bro boy guy my cringe man? lolroflmao
You’re both pretty. Apparently, you’re both not mad, and both feel you won. So everybody is happy, and not making a bunch of “I posted smarm last so I win” posts.
Because that would be a super silly thing to do, and we are super dignified and not drunk at noon on a Saturday or anything.
Sharing core values doesn’t make them an indistinguishable mass. The rolling plains of Mulgore and the deserts of Durotar look entirely different. Sharing land doesn’t mean you are homogenized as considering those 3 races look entirely different instead of just the same typical humans and pointy eared elves. The Horde didn’t sit around in the major story of Warcraft 3 so I don’t see how they would have to sit around in major stories of WoW without the addition of Blood Elves and Undead. The Horde doesn’t need to be involved in Alliance plots to be relevant. They could have their own unique plots. Your idea of “relevance” is just making us indistinguishable from the Alliance both story wise and aesthetically wise. Which is the case of today. There is no meaningful aesthetic difference anymore between Alliance and Horde.
So … Blizz just needed to create entire foundations of lore for them from scratch, while also not having them be relevant in major story threads that many of the previous expansions revolved around. They also should not really have any real attachments to CORE Universe themes like: Arcane; Death; Light; and the Void (of which only the Darkspear through Bwon have any attachments to the second, and NONE of the Horde races have connections to the other three).
So what exactly would you like from their stories? Seems to me the one more hung up on aesthetics of the Horde (rather than thematics) is you. And yeah … you are right that sharing land doesn’t mean you are hemogenized, being homogenized means your are homogenized. The lion’s share of stories centered around the Orcs; the vast majority of the Lore centered on Orcs; the Darkspear and Mulgore Tauren really did not have a lot going for them…
If you genuinely think that the inclusion of Elves somehow destroyed the Horde aesthetic (and made it indistinguishable from the Alliance) … not sure what to tell you there. Get over it?
Word.
When I walk into Orgrimmar over half the player characters are blood elves and Nightborn.
The Alliance too has lost much of its aesthetic with this High King nonsense.
So what? Why couldn’t they pull lore from scratch for them? That’s what they did in Warcraft 3. They pulled lore out from scratch for all those races in Warcraft 3, so why couldn’t they create new story threads with the advent of WoW? The Horde has Shamanistic warriors and witch doctors but I suppose that’s not “European” i.e. more like the Alliance enough for you to consider relevant.
They aren’t in the shadows of the Orcs simply by banding together to survive together. Orcs took on the leadership role, yes, but so? You still see all 3 races of Orcs, Trolls and Tauren in the Horde areas of Kalimdor. You keep harping about Orcs being in the forefront but all you want is for the Horde to give up its identity and accept Elf and Undead as the overlords thus effectively destroying everything which made the Horde unique.
I’ve done battlegrounds where I’m the only non-Blood Elf before. Everyone I’m allied with is a Blonde haired Elf Paladin. I forget what faction I’m actually playing. It’s a bad thing for both factions the Alliance has lost what made them unique because Blizzard has decided to give everything the Alliance had over to the Horde which has ruined what made the Horde unique.
I never had a problem leveling horde characters pre-Cata because it gave me fond memories of leveling alliance in Kalimdor. It was equally as sparse in quests and required level ‘gringing.’
Warcraft 3 was an RTS, you could easily justify what you’re talking about (which is essentially two entirely separate stories for both factions). The New Horde under Thrall was comprised of three very weakened peoples; which effectively mired in the standard “Noble Savage” trope.
They were never a real threat to the Alliance, so the Faction Conflict is out. They had no connection to the domains of Void, Light, or Arcane (so stories involving those key foundation elements of the universe are also out). Their connection to the Fel is effectively, “avoid it”. With out the induction of the Forsaken they would have had about half-a continents worth of actual game to play. Their connection with the Life domain comes from the Tauren banking on NE lore. Their domain of death is just about the only one they have connections to (and not UNDEATH, just DEATH).
Effectively, their story would begin and end with WC3. That’s it. They just want to survive, and nothing beyond that and no reason to be involved in the affairs of the world outside of that.
Except at the end of WC3 the Alliance didn’t defeat the Legion by itself. The Alliance were devastated in the Eastern Kingdoms with only the Dwarves and Stormwind remaining. They needed the help of the Horde. That’s the entire point. The Horde were obviously strong enough.
Half a continent? What about the Frost Wolves? We could have had Amani as allies instead of Elves. They are plenty of Forest Trolls in Eastern Kingdoms. Why do we need a connection to the Light? That’s Alliance mumbo jumbo. The Horde aren’t meant to be the Light faction. And why does Horde have to be excluded from Arcane without Elves? As we can see the Orcs and Trolls can be mages. The Horde can be involved in those magics without the inclusion of Elves.
All this talk about you having a problem with the Horde being homogenized but you yourself just want a homogenized story where the factions can’t be distinguished from one another and neither specializes in anything specific. The Horde can be the Paladin faction and the Alliance the Shaman faction. Everyone can be everything.
