No Justice for the Kaldorei (9.1 Spoilers)

Lore Story Forum
1639

Yea, and in the end the message is clear. That there are far too few left now, too few for them to still be a nation, and thus Anduin didn’t think it was worth it to fight for them. So he attacked Arathi, Lordaeron and Zuldazar instead.

It wasn’t, because if the Night Elves still had a decent army, they wouldn’t have lost the battle for Ashenvale and let the Horde keep it… Well maybe they would, if they act very out of character.

Actually it is, because we freed around 100 in the Ardenweald campaign, while 1000 died in Teldrassil alone. Now think about Ashenvale and Darkshore that were wiped out too. This brings us far below 10%.

1640

Again, Anduin’s thoughts were items that he was not in a position to know about, and they contradict facts laid down by Elegy’s narration. As for Anduin’s decisions to check off Stormwind’s geopolitical wishlist - yeah, he’s a bad ally. But that doesn’t have anything to do with the claims we’re discussing here.

As Elegy, A Good War, and the quests establish, the army was not able to contest Ashenvale because they were moved out of position to address what was going on in Silithus. They were not defeated in the field.

I have problems with using both of these numbers as full representations rather than the samples that games can portray, but I also want to hone down on this 1,000 number.

Would I be correct in stating then that your position is, based on this principle that you have adopted, that 1,000 is the total and complete death toll from the burning of Teldrassil?

1 Like
1641

It does, because we have nothing that suggests otherwise now, and all 3 night elf zones have been wiped out

That doesn’t matter, because they were unable to reconquer Ashenvale even after they returned. Thus the Horde still has Ashenvale to this day.

I’m talking about proportions, and they tell us that we saved <10% of those Night Elves that were killed. No matter the numbers. Furthermore, us not freeing the souls means that the jailer finished his plans with them. They were at this specific place for a reason. To show us what happened to the rest of them.

1642

This is false. Darkshore is back in Night Elven hands. (I realize that you’re going to say in two years it won’t be, but a) that’s a prediction, and b) we are talking about right now)

This is also unclear. Mission tables establish that fighting was going on in Ashenvale after the War of the Thorns. The Horde did not move through Ashenvale as though they were a wave, and the quests establish that they did not stay to lock down their holdings.

No, you’re being inconsistent in your accounting.

First, the 1,000 is a remainder figure after the evacuation itself had been largely conducted. I regard it as a sample of those killed. However, you also went and did this:

If you were consistently applying proportionality, then you would have taken the percentage of those obliterated out of the 100 that were there in order to make your calculation for how many were lost. Instead, you changed methods and treated the 1,000 as an absolute figure, from which we should calculate the proportion of 100 to 1,000. This is pretty flagrantly switching your method in order to overstate the figures.

1 Like
1643

Well in Mop, Night Elves lost Azshara and accepted it. Then in BfA, they lost Ashenvale and Teldrassil and their people and accepted it. Guess what’s left?

Mission tables also have you evacuate survivors from Teldrassil after it has been long burned down. They have no credibility. If anything, the Ashenvale battle from the missions could’ve been between 8.1 and 8.0 because in 8.1 the Horde basically had full control over Kalimdor until the Night Elves arrived by ship.

Which is your own headcanon

Also I don’t know what you’re talking about. We freed 80 in torghast, and then I believe between 10 or 20 more in the maw. That’s it. That’s 10% of those that died in Teldrassil, and even less if you consider Ashenvale and Darkshore.

This also applies if a million died in Teldrassil, because then we freed 100.000 which would still only be 10% of those lost, and the remaining ones were obliterated after their eternity of torture and suffering.
Is that a good resolution for them? Especially with Sylvanas getting away?

1644

This is a prediction, not a fact. We are talking about facts here, not predictions.

I disagree. They are canon until demonstrated to be otherwise. As for the Night Elves arriving by ship - that would be because that army that I mentioned was never able to land and eventually had to go overseas. So it would make sense that yes, they would land by ship. As for potential changes - show me those changes reflected in game, and we can talk about them.

We’re fundamentally talking about accounting methods here.

Your equation for those who died at Teldrassil is as follows:

(1-A/1000)*(B-C) = D

Where:
A = Amount saved in the quest
B = Total Population of Evacuated Territories
C = Those evacuated prior to the burning
D = Those killed in the burning

This I feel would be an accurate way of determining the figure. Taking that figure then and applying it to the maw, if we applied these methods consistently, then here would be your equation:

(1-E/100)*(D-F) = G

Where:

D = Those killed in the burning
F = Those rescued by other Maw walkers
E = The amount out of 100 not put into the amalgam
G = Those lost in the maw

But you didn’t do that. Instead, you did this:

(1,000 - [80-100])/D = G

Which, no, you don’t get to do that. You have to use the same equation for both calculations. You do not get to switch your methods of accounting when it suits you.

Otherwise Auditors like me get angry.

Edits:

  • Changed 80 to 80-100
  • E previously read to refer to those put in the amalgam, which reflects the wrong proportion.
1645

The fact that they had to give up Ashenvale and Teldrassil now on top of Azshara isn’t enough by itself?

Well, the evacuation mission simply doesn’t make sense. And the Ashenvale one plays before 8.1 seemingly.

As for your formula, I don’t know why you’re making things complicated when I explained them to you simply in a simple topic.

According to the numbers we have, we saved a tenth of those that died in Teldrassil alone. And this number goes down further when you count in those in Ashenvale and Darkshore.
1000 died in Teldrassil and we got to save around a hundred. That’s in the game and therefore the story.

1646

This is not a fact, this is an unverified guess, and Teldrassil was not ceded in the way that Azshara was.

There’s nothing complicated about being consistent with your methods of accounting. All I did was lay out what the methods were clearly - and pointing out that you’re improperly changing the methods in order to get the result that you want.

If I saw this being intentionally done in accounting data, we have a term for this: “Fraudulent Financial Reporting”.

1647

Except that the Horde has it, and the Night Elves never reclaimed it. So: Still Horde territory, and it proves my point that the Night Elves are destroyed as a nation and can’t even reclaim their own lands. And obviously also no chance to rebuild.

The writers are currently laughing their butts off about how they just let the Night Elf souls be obliterated, and you’re enabling and defending them.

1648

No, if anyone is doing that between us, that would be you.

Your previous comment is just bulldozing your own headcanon in over what’s actually been presented in canon. Claiming that the Horde has Ashenvale is not a statement of fact, it is your prediction, and as I stated previously, your inconsistencies in your methods in the setting that I normally work in would be described as fraudulent.

The end result of that is that you’ve turned yourself into a laughingstock, a meme. I can’t tell you how many threads I’ve had to walk the line between understanding where you’ve come from (which is a point that deserves consideration - pessimism is absolutely warranted), but evading the attacks on you that I end up having to explain. You say things that aren’t true, you’re inconsistent in your methodologies, you present predictions as though they were facts. These are easy points for your opponents to tar you for, and those of us who value facts and consistency end up having to clean up your mess.

You are making an already hard task harder than it needs to be. That’s why I feel the need to correct you directly - this overreach has to stop.

3 Likes
1649

Except that we literally have official lore stating it. What’s the point of arguing when you’re going to headcanon that the Night Elves magically reclaimed it, but nobody ever heard of it. Do you see how absurd that is?

Again, everything I state is supported by official lore.

Do you want to see the chapter from “A Good War” where the Horde claimed Ashenvale? And if you want to prove the opposite, how about you link actual proof then instead of making up that the Night Elves reclaimed it despite it making no sense at all and it also being super unrealistic.

1650

Ribbit ribbit you fel mutherf$^&er

7 Likes
1651

I was about to ask for your source, but I see you’ve done it here - and this is once again an in-character sentiment that’s expressed once the Horde takes Astraanar. This sentiment is:

a) Ignoring the parts of Ashenvale that they have yet to reach (a demonstration that the sentiment was more hopeful than factual);
b) Made in ignorance of the status of every single part of Ashenvale - recall that the Horde moved in a line, not as a wave;
c) Taking place before the Horde’s forces here are almost decimated by Malfurion’s counterattack (which wouldn’t have been possible if the sentiment turned out to be accurate);
d) Taking place before the quest in the War of the Thorns where Delaryn and the player enter Astraanar after the Horde has moved through it;
e) Taking place before the mission tables.

So no, that statement is not a demonstration that the Horde took Ashenvale, and certainly not a statement about its continuing status. It was made by someone who did not have complete information and it was updated by subsequent lore.

1 Like
1652

They were in Darkshore at the time of that statement already.

Outposts were taken out one after another, even those at the edges.

Also wrong. the statement was made when the Horde was already in Darkshore, which was phase 2.

Again, mission table is not accurate due to the teldrassil evacuation mission that didn’t make sense at all.
And we KNOW that in 8.1, the Horde had full control of Ashenvale and Darkshore. There was no night elf presence other than those defeated night elves that were used as target practise.

Yes, it is. And we’ve seen that ingame and in Elegy too. Furthermore, if the Night Elves reclaimed it, we would’ve heard of it, but the writers knew what they were doing when they let the Horde keep it and never mentioned it again.

Considering that the entire former Ashenvale Night Elf presence is dead, I’m also not sure what you’re expecting. It took them an entire expansion to reclaim Darkshore after all, and then the war ended before they even had the chance to attack Ashenvale.

It’ll never be mentioned again anyway, and since the last time a faction had full control of it was the Horde having it, it remains so especially since there won’t be another confirmation than the one we already got.

With writers that made our resolution the obliteration of the souls, Tyrande giving up on justice and Sylvanas being glorified, I’m not sure why you’re expecting that they magically got Ashenvale back offscreen.

But I’m also done arguing about this over and over. If you want to headcanon that the Night Elves are in a perfect state, then do so. I don’t care. But I want actual positive developments without having to make them up, period. And I haven’t seen a single one yet since Teldrassil, and I’m also not expecting one with hateful writers.

1653

Don’t exaggerate… Don’t …

1654

This is not true. The statement in question is on page 56 - right before the Night Elves attempt their decapitation strike.

While we’re here, here are some other statements that Saurfang made in A Good War.

In his haste to lecture his guards, Saurfang had done exactly what that boy had wanted. You just killed yourself, you old fool.
And Saurfang—they had drawn him in so easily. Astranaar was an island with limited access. Easily defensible. Impossible to escape. And Saurfang had just taken shelter in a building with few walls. To fight an archdruid. This is the end.

Saurfang, however, did not die in Astraanar. His belief was false.

But managing it all while under attack from the water? It would take weeks. The Alliance reinforcements would arrive, making it impossible to cross the waters from Darkshore. As it stood, the night elves would win this battle.

This was also incorrect and was later updated.

“Warchief, there is no route through Felwood,” Saurfang said.

Incorrect.

Saurfang pointed out the small boats to Nathanos. They were only lightly guarded. They would be destroyed the moment the night elves understood that the battle was truly lost. “Once we reach the shore, secure those,” he said quietly. “They will be useful when we take the tree.”

Obviously, they were neither useful, nor would they take the tree.

Nathanos was at her side, his words cold and biting. “How many Horde lives will Stormrage take in vengeance, Saurfang? Their blood will be on your hands.” “I will deal with that when it comes,” Saurfang said simply.

Saurfang did not deal with anything that Malfurion would do subsequently, nor is he able to.

So, obviously, Saurfang is not an omnipotent arbiter of truth. That’s not his fault, he’s a character in a story with incomplete information. But this should illustrate why you shouldn’t take character sentiments as facts.

Some were, some were not - it was a scattershot tactic, and the books acknowledge that they never expected that this was going to work everywhere.

You don’t get to throw out lore that you don’t like, sorry, and 8.1 is silent on the status of Ashenvale. I hate this, but there’s zero information on the status of what is a very large zone.

You clearly weren’t around during Cataclysm/MOP - I’ve been through one of these before - the writers are typically mum on the status of Ashenvale because they’re jerks. Eventually it was confirmed, however, that the Night Elves took it - this after I had to endure years of sneering Horde posters telling me that the Horde had it. They were wrong - because they, like you, were applying personal headcanon that was often at odds with the canon.

1655

Theres so much back and forth in this thread its exhausting. But I’m gonna add my noise to this.

People on both sides are failing to fundamentally understand the difference between the suffering of fictional characters vs the suffering of the human player behind the screen. No, Night Elf, Worgen or Forsaken has suffered anything because they aren’t real. But we can acknowledge that this game, blizz and it’s community have hurt different groups within the player base.

I don’t play NE, but I do play Forsaken and Worgen. And I didn’t realize how much Undercity meant to me until it was cruelly taken away. So I can relate to how upset NE players are. What I am exhausted hearing about though, are NE players saying “it’s the Horde’s fault they lost Undercity so they can’t complain”. That goes back to the whole seperating out fictional characters with real living breathing human beings.

Horde players had no say in the loss of Undercity. So you can recognize that the feeling of loss on our side is just as valid as yours.

But, I have made peace with it, for two reasons.

  1. I’ve known for years that Blizz was playing around with the idea of permanently destroying playable cities. It seems Blizz chickened out on nuking the faction capitols and targetted the popular secondary cities instead.

TBH they should have gone with the capitols so it affected everyone equally.

  1. Blizz understands that players do not like to use a playable thing. The loss is permanent only in the current timeline.

I was upset for awhile after losing Undercity. Then one day I learned all I had do to was talk to some NPC and voila, my favorite city is playable again. I imagine the same must be true for Teldrassil. (If not then that’s really messed up)

Outside of nuking cities though, I do think Blizz has crossed a line and created a game that’s deeply upsetting for many. Shadowlands has only made it worse - it should have never happened the way it did. The afterlife has always been canon in the WoWverse, and for literally many quests we put “spirits to rest” by beating them up. The belief was there must be some sort of Azerothian afterlife where loved ones can reunite.

First Blizz obliterates this long held belief for all the races. No one reuintes with family apparently, which is already fked up and territority they should have never touched. If that wasn’t all wrong, now all souls just go to the MAW. That’s even more horrible. And now some of those souls, say the victims of horrible events, are just obliterated?

Let’s be honest, this is content that should have never ever been in this game. We signed up for a faction fantasy war game, not a psychological horror that makes you feel all is pointless because all there is is suffering. No one plays a game for that.

I think we can all agree NE, Worgen and Forsaken are victims of bad writing that’s upsetting to players year after year.

…
Some more thoughts.

Forsaken aren’t even acknowledged in Shadowlands. Were called “mortals” when were clearly not. Were Undead walking in the afterlife. For what reason do we return to the living?

Won’t the Forsaken cease to exist without Sylvanas raising more? What’s the justification now for this playable race?

It’s ironic that NE players ask if NE will just cease being playable. I actually asked the same thing of Forsaken. Plot and storywise, we no longer have any reason for being and it makes all the sense Azeroth will just ask us to go Maldraxxus or something, apparently we’d fit right in.

11 Likes
1656

The matter in my mind comes back to the concept of “constructive death”. Forsaken and Night Elves will of course, always be playable - but is there anything there left resembling what attracted people to these concepts in the first place, any future for them, and any real reason to play them outside of maybe mechanics and aesthetics?

I’d say no - and while you’re quite right to point out that the issue isn’t what happens to pixels, it’s what happens to people, I think you’re downplaying the investment that people are encouraged to cultivate in places and in concepts that were destroyed for marketing purposes.

As for this (after I mentioned that there was no mechanical reason for this “pruning”, as is demonstrated by the continued ‘existence’ of these places) - you can probably tell by the level of this character that I haven’t actually played her in BFA and Shadowlands. I had a chance to log in with her recently - I would always hang out in Darnassus in my spare time, and the character remains there, in Chromie time. Back when I played, there was always someone around in Darnassus doing something - the place after all hosted a sizeable RP community. Even during the more quiet moments, there would at least be one or two people.

If you go there now, there’s absolutely no one. It’s like being in the Langoliers. It’s eerie, it’s empty, and it’s saddening as someone who used to spend a lot of time there and had memories of the fun that it offered me. So sure, you can still go back there, but Blizzard has still killed it. The magic, the energy, and everything that I loved about it is gone.

That makes it a perfect metaphor for the Night Elves as a race. That is what I mean by constructive death.

5 Likes
1657

To be fair, Blizzard has made it part of the Shadowlands Lore that we’re seeing only a tiny fraction of what’s going on. There are infinite afterlives across The Inbetween where many of the people we laid to rest have indeed gone on to reunite with loved ones or enjoy peace or just rewards. We just don’t see those. I honestly think that’s a big mistake and I’m hoping that before this expansion is over we’ll get some Pandaria-style Scenarios or Island Expedition-like events or hell, just short cinematic quests, involving traveling to the afterlives of some of our favorites and seeing that all is well (or at least it will be once we kick some butt side by side with them one more time).

As for the whole thing with the Maw and souls possibly being destroyed, I think one of the biggest missteps with this expansion was not really pushing that angle. The fact that so many people are being dragged to the Maw is something we should be pumped to do something about, and the fact that some of them are not going to be saved if we don’t do it fast enough is great incentive, story-wise. It worked out well as an emotional throughline for the Night Fae, that we’re fighting to save Wild Gods and Loa and other things we care about from the Anima Drought and the Night Fae’s enemies and the Mawsworn, why not extend that writ large? We’re fighting to save every soul in the Maw from being obliterated for the Jailer’s ends. That’s a heroic story! Invading hell to save the souls of our friends before they’re hammered into some monster’s armor or axe, and fixing the broken clockwork that sent them there in the first place!

But for some reason the story is very centered on our four kidnapped leaders and the idea of saving the Maw’s captives is kind of a sideshow, much like the Jailer himself. Its really weird.

9 Likes
1658

Tragedy is only one if its happen to the alliance and even more to the night elf. Genocide isn’t a tragedy when its happen to the BE. Losing a city isn’t important if its the forsaken. Having nearly all your content being about getting kill or destroying yourself is not bad content if its happen to the horde.
Just go on the horde redeem thread and this kind of thing happen a lot.

5 Likes