No Justice for the Kaldorei (9.1 Spoilers)

Lore Story Forum
1297

Unfortunate, but expected.

You were called out on the use of an is/ought fallacy, and not only did you fail to correct it, but you repeated the argument that used it as underlayment.

We’re done. 4/10 for keeping my attention for as long as you did though. One other point in passing: you’ve got a subject verb disagreement going on there in your last sentence. You know, the one that you thought was going to be your foot-to-the-ground zinger?

Go play the mission, and not just with cheat codes. Defeating the Night Elf portion of Cenarius’s force is not as easy as argumentation of this stripe implies. The Chaos Orcs did not simply obtain a silver bullet, all of their stats dramatically increased, as did their attack speed - that’s crucial for dealing with the enemy that you’re facing in more than just a defensive capacity.

Furthermore, I am begging with you to please stop this simultaneous assertion that Night Elves are too weak and too strong.

No, it is not a stain on the Horde if the Night Elves are able to, with the help of local allies, hold Ashenvale despite that the Horde exists.

No, the above statement should not be interpreted solely through the lens of the War of the Thorns. That was a bonkers scenario that does not represent normal conditions, but rather, the effects of writers who likely wrote the thing while taking some schedule I illegal substances.

No, it is not “unfair” to the Horde that they have to oppose a regional power to the north. No more than if the Alliance has to deal with such a thing on the EK, which I argue that they should.

No, armies do not fight by dumping their whole militaries onto Final Destination from Super Smash Brothers. Terrain matters, geography matters, the biome matters, force concentrations and the ability of respective sides to get them while defending their territories (which in the Western Horde’s case are more dispersed) matter.

No, it is not fair or reasonable to adopt a set of arguments that holds that it is inevitable or reasonable that the Horde should or would one day wipe the Alliance from Kalimdor - just as it isn’t reasonable for Alliance posters to claim that one day Lordaeron should be retaken as they force Quel’thalas into the fold. Other player communities, and their standing within the world must be respected, and not simply the one that you come from.

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1298

I’m not saying that. All I’m saying is that WC3 does not support Zahir’s assertion that the NEs were more powerful than the Horde and Alliance combined. Outside of the reality, that both had gone through several meatgrinders and hadn’t even had a chance to rebuild themselves. So that “Truth with context” doesn’t also translate into things staying that way. In short, WC3 is not a good gauge between matchups between these factions in current WoW. And on a micro sample level, the Warsong and NEs (before Cenarius showed up) is a decent enough example of a general Orc vs NE throwdown if nothing else.

And granted things get a lot more one-sided if you allow the NEs Patrons and Trust-Fund Parents into the mix. But those guys are so inconsistent in their participation, that its super suspect if they’d be involved in Mortal vs Mortal political conflicts. With even Cen even only getting as involved in WC3 as he did because he assumed that the Orcs were agents of the Legion. And wanted to shut down a foothold situation.

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1299

A big difference shouöd be mentiod. A part of the alliance want to fix the releationshiw with the bloodelfes and wanted them reinvited

The horde right now, tried several time to push the n11 away

1300

Which is great to note in canon, but again, it’s not something that should ever happen because it would screw with regional balance.

I know that people are sick of me saying that, but if they wanted otherwise, then they shouldn’t have put this into an MMO where these factors matter.

Fair, I agree on that. I do not feel that Warcraft 3 supports the “Night Elf Master Race” theory. I feel that it establishes them as a regional power, and that such doesn’t change as we move into WoW, particularly as they bring on regional allies.

I disagree. This is assuming unrealistic force concentrations without the benefit of key strategies. It would be like saying that if the Mexican army won a gun battle with the US Border Patrol that such means that they could take on the US Military. The bout with Cenarius demonstrated some of the complications with this - this being before the Night Elf campaign itself, which I noticed gets ignored in these conversations.

:roll_eyes:

I’m just going to say it straight here. If Cataclysm is any indication, the ancients hold the Night Elves back more often than not. Only Cenarius could be bothered to lift a finger in Warcraft 3. The Druids meanwhile adopted this holier-than-thou crap at the mere suggestion that they should do something about the Horde, and the ancients were nowhere to be seen during the War of the Thorns. Meanwhile, they ask the Night Elves to protect their crap and to make immense sacrifices for things that they are happy to let Night Elves die defending, but won’t defend themselves unless and until it gets really bad.

It’s a parasitic relationship, and I’m starting to think that the Kaldorei need to push back about it.

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1301

The problem here is that without thinking too much about the future they simply copy pasted Kaldorei druidic traditions including the ancients to both the horde druids, and the alliance. They wrote themselves into a corner in this so they tend to… try to ignore them. Likewise the Circle is bound to neutrality because it has members of both factions in it.

The Loa are free to act in BFA because they are distinctly Horde/Troll only. This is why the Cenarion circle needs to kick the Horde out and let them establish their own circle based in worship of their own spirits/loa

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1302

You’re not wrong.

I mean, lets be clear here, the Ancients only have historically moved their bums on anything when it threatens their little corner of the world (or them) directly. They are supposed to be the protectors of “nature”, but generally (perhaps because so many of them are byproducts of the Titan made Emerald Dream), they really only try to protect one type of nature. Hell, you have Loa out there like Gral, Torcali, and Sethraliss who not only go to bat for their followers in big ways; but also go to bat for whatever little corner of nature they reside in too. Not to mention Kimbul’s arc, where he is so aggrieved at his failure to protect his worshipers, he refused to take new ones out of shame at his own expense. It is kinda weird that after all these years the scripts have flipped, and the LOA are often more reliable. I don’t know how we got here?

Regardless, I think we can agree that the NEs are SUPER powerful. The WoT was total BS awful writing for both sides, but for completely different reasons. With the NEs being hit with the stupid stick hard, and the Horde just kind of forgetting over a decades worth of tech, tactics, and lessons learned when fighting the NEs. And Zahir’s a bit of an extreme in how they perceive the “power levels” of the NEs.

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1303

My position is that bad writing has consequences, and this is one of them.

I agree that WoT is absurd, but I justify the Night Elves as a regional power based on my assessment of geographical factors, not on the basis that they’re innately superpowerful (which I don’t think they are or should be) … but that’s what happens when you listen to too much Caspian Report and hang on every word that Peter Zeihan says. :woman_shrugging:

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1304

The Cenarion Circle isn’t bound to neutrality. The members that fought alongside the Alliance in the Darkshore Warfront did not lose their Cenarion Circle membership. And we found out in Shadows Rising that the Horde members still on Mount Hyjal didn’t either, and are still working under Malfurion even with the Night Elves having moved back there.

That said, Cenarius should have definitely been a Darkshore Warfont general if they had ever implemented more than just Maiev and Sira.

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1305

Giving the Night elves a definitive victory would be 100% enough. Ashenvale being the staging ground of persistant conflict would be a decisive win that forces the Horde to use Azshara** and the barrens. Having the Horde lament Ashenvale’s loss would give a consequence in the Night Elves’ favor.

It doesn’t have to be dominating the Horde’s territory, but rather actually winning over a persistant location fought over.

  • Edit - correction
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1306

The problem of course is that the Horde has no reason to be in Ashenvale. If we are truly trying to make voluntary amends of some nature. Hell, as far as I can tell, the only reason that zone is even in Limbo anymore is because the Devs know its a contention point; and like to stir the sh*t. So the NEs getting a “definitive victory” comes with the question of … over who? Are they really going to be happy with some suicidal Sylvie loyalists who just decided to settup shop in a the one zone between two enemies?

Like, truly, as a Horde player … I’ve wanted nothing to do with Ashenvale since MoP. Or any NE northern Kali zone. And its hard not to recognize that if the Horde was going to contest the NEs over anything, Stonetalon -> South are far more valuable; and far more realistic to hold. The Horde is forced to attack Ashenvale, not because of “resources” (that’s Blizz BS), but because Blizz knows it will result in an emotional response from the Alliance. Its them making us a god damned plot-device again.

Its a weird situation, but Blizz is truly keeping that god damned zone in Limbo completely at both Faction’s expense. We don’t want it. The NE’s do. And after 4+ years of being shamed for being forced to attack the Alliance, we also have the issue that any horde player still half paying attention to the story has zero motives to want to participate in the Faction Conflict ever again. While the Alliance (especially the NEs) have plenty of reasons to want to wail on us. But, at this point, personally I’ll just roll over if they do.

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1307

What do you mean? The Horde have very solid reasons to be in Ashenvale. It is a source of lumber and herbs as well as expansion. Ashenvale is coveted deeply and the Warsong Outriders have been the forefront of this battle for years. Even going against Thrall’s command as they recognize it’s value.

You might’ve never wanted anything out of it. But the Horde as a whole, Thunder Bluff, Sen’jin, and Orgrimmar all benefit from Ashenvale’s resources.

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1308

And yet the territories south of Ashenvale can serve those purposes reasonably enough. Are easier to hold once taken. And will give the Horde actual breathing space to grow, rather than fighting over lumber right next door as the faction can barely feed the 5 different cultures in those tiny handful of zones around the Barrens. And … I as a player am just forced to dick around in Ashenvale (a zone we know we can’t hold and pits us up against the same victims Blizzard has ACTIVELY been shaming us for forcing us to fight for 4+ years). There is only so much “you’re an evil, weak, pathetic, vial monster who’s only good for being a plot-device to settup future content and future expacs” a person can take. Especially with our “best” and “heart” being a worthless plot device himself, who’s only value as a person is what value a Mary Sue Boy King can find in him.

Any time the Horde is FORCED to punch outside of its weightclass and blindly attack all that is Moral, Pure, Flawless and Virtuous in this setting … it just breaks the Faction down even more.

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1309

I just want to point out - Thrall did know, and supported it. Varian had to negotiate with him during the Theramore Peace Conference to get him to do anything about it.

1310

It has always bugged me that the Horde didnt Just go for uncontested lands in the south.

There is literally a giant jungle in Un’goro crater that is entirely uncontested by the Alliance. There is I believe a single neutral outpost out there, and the Kaldorei have absolutely no holdings in the region. The complaint it isn’t practical because of distance one perhaps could of made before totally collapses with Shal’dorei Telemancy making holding stable portals open for protracted periods of time relatively simple for the Horde now.

The Horde might also consider more sustainable practices outside the clear cutting and strip mining they do currently, also. Just Say’n

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1312

I really love threads like this because I enjoy tallying up all the money being spent by people just for the intention of complaining about the night elf story.

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1313

To me, it’s more about seeing the narrative writing on the wall (especially since it’s underlined and done up in fancy neon) about Ashenvale being synonymous with the horde screwing up.

Horde expansion seems like an especially sucky story hook at this point. In-universe, sure; any civilization would benefit from pillaging Ashenvale. As a player, why care about that?

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1314

Most of those territories south of Ashenvale are ancestral Tauren nomadic land. With Gazlowe in charge of the Cartel now, I’m sure he’ll allow for consideration and oversight from the Tauren to sustainably utilize those lands. Hell, Desolace is a fixer upper that has been shown can be fixed up. Since the AU Mag’har wont be going home, but might be able to save more of their people if the AU Lightbound show up again … let them settup shop in Desolace. Again with a bit of Tauren oversight. And if you want a neat twist, say the Botani have taken over Muraudon and have explosively (and violently) started a regrowth of the surrounding areas.

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1315

So uhh… that was easy. Thanks.

I don’t disagree really. If you’re saying in-game they should’ve done more to present this (and then later conflict with Night Elves and Stormwind) I concur 100%. That doesn’t really change anything about what I wrote though. In an ideal world, I’d honestly remove BfA entirely. Even ignoring Teldrassil, it has us defeating N’Zoth in a patch. I would’ve loved to see an entire expansion devoted almost solely to beating him.

So the answer is showing more Night Elves dying? I really don’t think anyone wants this. But honestly - and this isn’t just to you - I agree the writing has been bad since, basically Wrath. Maybe Cataclysm. From WoD it’s been a dumpster fire for the most part. But while I agree about that, there’s no real changing the past, only going forward. Unless we time-travel.

Yeah, sure, if they’re a neutral race I’m okay with it I guess. For a player race, no matter what kind of execution, it’s just bad for gameplay. Even if you have them needed to save Azeroth you then rely on them losing a lot of forces in every battle (and also being at the forefront of saving every conflict). It’s just not sustainable.

I hadn’t checked the forums since your post following mine. I had hoped Kyalin had stopped bullying people who didn’t agree with him. He hasn’t.

Asserting bad faith claims when presented evidence to the contrary. Resorting to bully again. Deflecting the topic by refusing to actually engage in arguments.

Wrong.

Blatant call to disengage with any differing opinions and rely on tribalism to promote an echo chamber.

Wrong.

Obviously neglecting the counter argument which is the is/ought fallacy regarding the military strategies used in the War of Thorns.

Wrong.

I mean this is just flat out being disrespectful, but it’s followed by this gem.

You realize you’re arguing that because things are not occurring in WoW (dumping armies in one direction or another) that it should not occur, right?

I’ll give you half-credit because I’m not sure if you’re being ironic after calling someone out on is/ought.

I advocated in another thread (though it is a bit extreme) to leave Orgrimmar for the Orcs and since we’re now a Horde council, make an HQ in Un’goro. Not the greatest to defend since it’s a valley, but plenty of resources and we would build outposts on the ridges.

Heck you can even make Night Elves feel good - they can claim Ashenvale and then burn Orgrimmar. Why not?

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1316

Will there be population in Orgrimmar at the time of its destruction? Or a repentant army?

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The answer is, to make the story that looked like nonsense to be more coherent and less random would be to (since they supposedly write story in advance) have a proper set up and build up for why that would work, why ancients / wild gods were who knows where etc. More content, less of a rush, clearer narrative structure.

It’s not just the idea which is risky to use, but the execution was nowhere near to make it work IMO.

What does it have to do with the gameplay, if the players are on a power scale separated from the rest? PCs are tethered to Azeroth’s life force, so it does not matter if you’re draenei or vulpera - source is the same and it’s a limiting factor, same for all.

it’s full of titan machinery for better or for worse. But I guess Magni might be open for negotiations.

gl hf

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