Once again, is/ought fallacy - and I don’t think I have seen a more nakedly horde-biased assertion of how things should be.
Unless you want to argue for differential pricing, this is an MMORPG that heavily sells into faction identity, faction pride, and the faction rivalry. The latter of these requires balance (which is cut in many different ways, ALL of which are important) in order to work - and the failure to deliver on these elements has been what has made the faction war so dissatisfying.
No one wants to play a game that they are doomed to lose, and Horde players have been very clear that they don’t want the good versus evil narrative that such a construction has required.
Honestly, the more I read this thread the more I weirdly fixate on Zahir’s claim that the NE Nation was more powerful than the Horde and Alliance combined? I mean, “technically” they were in WC3 I suppose. The Horde was a bundle of dislodged refugees that had barely gotten their footing, and the Alliance had already suffered the consequences of the 1st War, 2nd War, and the Scourge? But, I dunno. Is WC3 the basis for this claim? Because outside of the technicality of who the NEs were interacting with (and they certainly as a nation were more powerful than the Horde), does that game really create the best baseline for comparison either way? Especially now that we’re like 16 years from that game?
The night elves definitely weakened over time and the situation did not change in their favor, but it remains that a defense is always easier than an attack and that the situation has not improved much for the horde, in general, especially the Kalimdor horde (it is you who always emphasizes that the Kalimdor horde also consists only of remnants of their kind), it is quite equivalent to it.
So the night elf take the lion lift in the fight against the legion in wc3, gave up their blessings and a big part from them died there, but so did the Horde and Allianctroops aswell. Its still a Wonder after all this wars…theHorde still exist in Kalimdor.
That’s not my point tho Zahir. Like, of COURSE the NE Nation was going to be more powerful than the Horde in WC3. They were essentially a bunch of dislodged refugees. But, I question if the Alliance was involved enough with the events on Kalimdor to make that sort of comparison between the NEs and them. Because, wasn’t the Alliance’s presence on Kalimdor really more just factions of Kul Tiras after they had left the Alliance? And even then, as you said, the NEs have “weakened over time” … but the Horde and Alliance have both grown stronger or recovered their strength during that same period. What might have been true then, need not be true now.
Leaving the argument of “who’s stronger now” to the side for the moment, I just question the rational of whether WC3 is a good baseline for comparison between strength between nations. I honestly have no idea if that game is sufficient evidence to argue either way (beyond the WC3 NEs being stronger than the WC3 Horde). It feels weird to use that game as evidence of any true comparison with how weird the context of the interactions were.
The WC3 manual described…that this was all that was left of the Alliance as a whole, so I would argue that at the time Gamelore (which definitely described a different scenario), Night Elves were stronger than Horde and Alliance combined.
and on top of this, yeah, i would argue the night elf were stronger then the intact alliance and horde aswell, i mean, they were the only opponend, worthy to “fight the legion”, and the horde and the alliance was needed because groms deeds killed a important allied -connection to the wild gods, so they have to shed the blood for it to save the world.
OK, but lets assume thats true. That still doesn’t really give us a good comparison between the groups, beyond situationally in those events of that campaign. Because what you’re essentially saying is that a Nation of People who had enjoyed “nearly” 10k years of prosperity and peace in complete isolation are stronger at that moment than a straggler band of refugees (Orcs, Darkspear, Tauren) who hadn’t even had time to put down new roots … and an Alliance who had just weathered the 1st War, the 2nd War, and were in the midst (or precipace) of the Scourge. Like … yeah, I guess? The NEs were stronger than two groups of people who hadn’t even had much time to breath between their near-extinction level events.
EDIT: And my god, stop using the WotA content to support the idea that the NEs were these demigod tier powerhouses. That content does not support that stance UNLESS you are deliberately factoring in their Patrons and Trust-Fund Parents coming in and doing the legwork.
The night elves in this lore were not 10,000 years of peace and happiness, back then they were actually at constant war with someone and were the guardians of the Living World. The lore and the function of the night elves and their connection to the world was different than today.
So even your basic parameters would have to be adapted to that scenario now if you want to talk about it.
We know that the night elves in the WC3 scenario destroyed a LOT of races, later this was interpreted as an exaggeration by Maiev, but at that time it was as we also know not meant that way, it was a fact.
Metzen once wrote about the night elves as a people in constant war, and that their warriors are always uniquely well trained because they have constant wars.
They were just not at war as we imagine, they could attack secretly, at night. And even if they were seen, no one survived this fight, so nothing as tales remains about “who killed all this peoples”. There were tales of the Forest Spirits throughout Kalimdor…even the Tauren in the Barrens and the Centaurs knew of these tales of the deadly Forest Spirits and feared them terribly.
You mean when you had “Small Group” vs “Small Group” conflict? All the NEs conflict with the Warsong clan showed what Grom said about them in the context in which he said it. They are “formidable, but not overwhelmingly so” … unless a Patron shows up (like Cenarius). And Grom’s actions, as flawed as they were, were prompted because Cenarius was intending to eradicate the Orcs, because he believed them to be agents of the Legion. And wanted to purge the chances of a foothold situation.
That stupid Elk man created a self-fulfilling prophecy by essentially putting the Warsong into a “drink this random pool, or die” scenario. And given that was Cenarius’ motives in that exchange (the NEs do have some wiggle room, but not Cen) … it seems very unlikely that HE would have stopped with the Warsong if it had become apparent to him that there were more orcs setting up just to the south in Durotar. Because again "he was convinced he was trying to prevent a foothold for the Legion". So I cannot fathom why one existing just south of Ashenvale would be more acceptable than one IN Ashenvale?
The Warsong were not a small group, the Orcclans were of gigantic size and the Warsong clan was the last intact clan. So stop telling yourself that all the time, the Warsong clan was huge. Even Lord of the Clans mentions that Thrall has never seen (and he saw all the camps when he traveled with Blackmoore) SO many orcs as there.
There were enough of them that they could easily fight daily battles internally and Mak’gora to the death as a measure against being bored…no Orcclan that is on its last legs and barely survives does that.
THAT is YOUR Word, he said about them “The perfect warriors” because , in wc3 , they were. A few of them slaughter more orcs as the warsong lost in almost 10 years in Lordaeron…
You are not basing this off of anything beyond your own subjective opinion to paint the situation as more one-sided against the NEs that it was. The Warsong “may” have been the most numerous clan remaining, but even they could not possibly have survived the war against the Draenei, the interim period of Orcs slaughtering eachother, the 1st War, the 2nd War, and the internment camps with the numbers you seem to be imagining. Not to mention, the Warsong and Grom were sent into Ashenvale to cut lumber and cool their hot-heads. They weren’t prepared for a War, no matter how “Warrior Culture” they were. Let alone combatants they were completely caught by surprise by, they had never faces before, AND deep in their own friendly terrain.
You do get that your entire metric for comparison falls apart the moment the Lumberjack Warsong Clan doesn’t have the immense numbers you are claiming they do right? Populous compared to the OTHER Orc clans means nothing. The events post their manipulation and corruption by KJ wiped out ENTIRE clans of Orcs. The others having less doesn’t automatically mean the Warsong are in great shape either. Just better shape.
They were not woodcutters, however, but warriors, as Grom himself said angrily in the first mission when he was sent there.
On top of that, YOU are starting from a small group against a small group. The night elf army was far away when the orcs appeared, Cenarius was here …and the first sentinels met the orcs, they watched them, true, and attacked afterwards, true too.
Doesn’t change the fact that Cenarius with a splinter group of an army almost wiped out the orcs. And that’s what Chronicle 3 confirmed to you again, its reconfirmed this wc3 part, it was just a small offshoot of the army that was on its way to destroy the invaders and repel the supposed “legion invasion”. Well, then the real one came and the army ran straight to Hyjal for the defense of Nordrasill (from there it was also called off as the orcs starts to show up)
Doesn’t change the fact that Cenarius changed the tides of that battel so absurdly, in part because the Orcs’ weapons COULD NOT HURT HIM. They couldn’t even defend themselves from him, all they could do was run as a Demigod convinced they were demons tried to hunt them to extinction. You don’t even know the population of the NE forces in that area, your entire assumption hinges on the Warsong being a standing army of … homeless, war-torn refugees. Because they had more population left … compared to the other homeless refugee clans left. All the Warsong/NE conflict in Ashenvale shows is an example of Small Group vs Small Group fighting.
This does not translate in the NEs favored terrain being the autowin button. Let alone in your version of events here, where JUST the Warsong clan were able to stave off and fight back their assailants (caught completely by surprise, not prepared for a battle beyond their cultural prerogative, facing NE tactics for the first time ever, AND being deep in the NEs favored terrain). UNTIL Cenarius arrived. And that bumbling centaur only got as involved as he did because he was convinced of another Legion threat. In turn, ironically, creating that threat.
You know…that alone the orcs - of the Warsong clan- could split up into 5!! big camps (as the missions later show you)…tells you that this clan was anything but small.
It was a back and forth before between the Sentinels and the Warsongs. pretty even.
But the Warsong clan did not reach the population centers in Ashenvale. That means a statement about it is not possible, but compared with the WOW representation it is to be assumed that a large part was in Hyjal and only few in Ashenvale.
Are we really arguing population numbers based off RTS game mechanics now?
EDIT: Because if we are, we really should be asking how all those Orcs (just the Warsong clan alone) could fit onto the Three boats the Horde had to get to Kalimdor?
My assumption is what the lore tells me: last great orc clan, so strong that the Alliance in 10 years never managed to really come close to hitting the clan, let alone seriously threatening it, and was later actually the bulk of the army, the lion’s share in the battles that followed, whether for the camps, Kalimdor, Legion.
As chaos orcs then, yes, they made huge strides in Ashenvale, cutting a swath through the defenders and creating a breach of devastation, but as normal orcs, before that, without Legion powerup…they weren’t nearly as big a threat, let alone competition.
It seemed to me that at that moment I was bargaining, exchanging “broken fantasy” (“lords of the world” -> “newcomers to the world”) for “broken fantasy” (“culture of warriors and honor” -> “bloodthirsty monsters”). Or trying to chain up “correct” (using / distorting Droité logic) racial fantasies based on the presentation of races (night elves and orcs) at specific intervals.
This was not an acknowledgment of a “newcomer to the world” fantasy in action.
Russian
Мне казалось, что я в тот момент торговался, менял “сломанную фантазию” (“владыки мира” -> “новички в мире”) на “сломанную фантазию” (“культура воинов и чести” -> “кровожадные монстры”). Или пытался составить цепочку “правильных” (используя/искажая логику Droité) расовых фантазий на основе презентации рас (ночные эльфы и орки) в определенные промежутки времени.
Это не было признанием фантазии “новички в этом мире” действующей.
Okay, but the makers of the game have specifically written several games where the horde is winning and only loses due to internal politics…and outright state in a game manual that one orc grunt is as strong as two foot soldiers.
