No Justice for the Kaldorei (9.1 Spoilers)

It matters in that it means in any conflict between factions, one side is basically blatantly more powerful. If Night Elves are rivals in power to the Horde, the Alliance is far superior (unless every other Alliance race is almost powerless). Kyalin basically quit playing earlier because his Night Elf fantasy was destroyed by Teldrassil’s burning. Obviously the PC vs NPC aspect mattered to him. If 11 races are made to be utterly powerless, they might feel the same way. But I don’t know.

Whichever you want. Just don’t include our meager cast of heroes. While we’re at it, would you mind much if we just happened to have Calia there?

Just remember it’s still contingent on us getting to build a new capital for our council in Un’goro (with some defenses above the valley).

Okay, we kill the repentant army. Then in Un’Goro more “civilian” population will die. There will be Tauraho 2.0.
How long has Orgrimmar been built there? Five years?

Not anymore regardless. The question is more about going forward.

  1. yes, that was the explanation for why no draenei, etc. To make things seem more “equal”, regardless of how it actually made the story look.

  2. should the horde be considered “underdog”, or should this story line be retired? That is the question for the horde audience. Can’t have both at the same time.

  3. individual races might be stronger or weaker, depending on the situation or in general, to make less differentiation.

  4. being a stronger faction might not matter that much when there is no unity. Different interests, tension, etc. But that would require to have different valid points to make sense, aka no more Anduin is correct (or any character to be always unquestionably correct). And this is where the dev team is bigger problem than the story elements.

I did not play for a long time till the Shadowlands pre-patch, so I do not know much about all the motivation.

What is a topic of concern to me is that this story has the same patterns of selectively picking only parts of the story, pushing characters OOC when convenient (close to it), being fine with ret-con as a solution approach, being inconsistent, having blatant favoritism for characters / ideas that result in using the knows “franchise” to place in elements alien to why it became popular, etc.

It’s clearly visible on the night elf story, but is not unique to them.

The problem is that they all are as strong or weak as the plot demands. Like Baine, “heart of the horde”. I unlocked mag’har, and throughout the entirety of 8.0 content he did not ever show a single thought about what happened.

Only when the story went to Jaina’s brother at the convenient time - now he remembered about being a “heart of the horde”.

Such is the treatment of the narrative so far. Sad and disappointing. The fires over Teldrassil simply highlighted the plagues warping this and many other aspects of the story.


gl hf

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But you also have to compare the situations themselves.

Defense or attack, and that makes a gigantic difference.

Even though the Horde has been trying to attack Ashenvale since WC3 (RL time thus 18 years), now in BFA was the first time, the first time! that they saw the passages of Ashenvale west of their areas and behind Astranar…18 years.

The Horde had never come this far before in BFA, so it was almost unfamiliar territory for them.

And look to the forsaken, they were infact an offensive counterbalance to the entire ek alliance in cata.

Maybe not to this degree, but people DID went to Baal´s thread implying Nelves under the stress portrayed in the WoT narrative proposed by Blizzard a.k.a. NO/ZILCH/NADA Nelf army INSIDE NEFL TERRITORY, should had prevented the military incursion of 6 core Horde races. And this is hilarious when I haven´t seen NONE of those posters saying Forsaken alone should had btchslapped the military incursion of 6 core Alliance races in Tirisfal, which is the mirror scenario -oh my mistake, only the military of 5 core Alliance races cause Nelves were busy in Kalimdor- (ergo, double standards… no surprises there).

So yes, maybe they don´t come out to say it openly citing “defense” and geographical territory" and a bunch of other stuff, but at the end of the day the message is the same. And guess what man? Not even irl the “defender” gets by default superiority thanks to knowledge of the geographical terrain, sometimes they still got beat up by other nations military wise (example: Mongols and Europe. Some guys -me included cause I must surely have some Spanish greatgreatgreat grandfather somewhere- should be grateful Temujin bite tyhe dust at the moment he did, cause Mongols weren´t in favor of keeping hostages-).

Droité always has made a great point: the problem with the WoT is NOT the portrayal of the Nelves (the story took the necessary steps to portray HOW and WHY they were in a disadvantageous position at the time), is NOT properly portraying the Horde military advantage at the time (indeed there should had been moar Blight and moar woodcutters and moar magic involved so it didn´t look as vague how the Horde managed to gain territory in Ashenvale).

THIS. Ty for pointing out the root of the narrative problem (mediocrity AND incompetence… and a blatant absence of quality control -which is probably the reason why the other 2 manage to exist in the first place-).

Yup, and they were on Silithus too at the time if you remember.

Err… I´m quite sure the Horde and Alliance faction of WC3 are NOT military constructs with the technology and logistic level of the nowadays factions… as a matter of fact both were but glorified refugees at the time.

Context in the story IS important… and context says the Nelves in WoT weren´t confronting the Horde of 18 years ago that didn´t even had a city of their own ffs.

Quote source cause as far as I remember, this is headcanon.

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Thus, the Forsaken lacks the racial fantasy of the night elves. The Forsaken - Shard of the Scourge, Shard of Lordaeron. “Refugees”. Why would you moan about not stopping the attack?
Moreover, it is not a mirror. Or is it a crooked mirror. All the same, the Horde drowned the Undercity in the plague, and the location was not completely destroyed.

For the night elves, the problem with WoT is precisely the image of the night elves. We were attacked again. They are killing us again. Again, someone has to save us, because we, out of our own stupidity, sent our entire army to who knows where.

We were not saved. Our army and heroes, despite Saurfang’s confidence in our strength, could not drive the Horde out of Darkshore in one expansion. We are still shown as idiots caught up in the Horde’s trick.

I must remember that the Forsaken were also hurt. However, why? One Forsaken worried about his garden, two others mocked him. They turned their city into a trap, making the Alliance idiots (again).

Pity yourself, sing about yourself beloved. Moan, cry, dream and thirst for revenge, accept the villainous bat, kill all your offenders, die, experiencing deep satisfaction from the fact that you are being killed by the Great MacGuffe, and not with an ordinary ax.
Yes.

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Zarrin, your incoherence is showing. Go look up what an is/ought fallacy even is.

I actually have made this argument. Amphibious assaults are ridiculously hard to coordinate, let alone when you’re necessarily doing it from two opposing corners of the world, moving in a third one, along a coast that doesn’t have good landing beaches (which the Horde evidently didn’t even oppose), with no apparent concern for staging areas, logistics, or the threat of interception. Then there’s the fact that you’re sieging a fortified city, which the Alliance solves by having Jaina steal Captain Hook’s pirate ship and blasting the walls with it. Ridiculous.

I don’t get the chance to make this point often, but it’s in my posting history. Both scenarios were “just make it work” logic in motion, and it shows.

I mean, first, THE problem is that they decided to do it in the first place. THE problem is the simultaneous destruction of the locus of investment of a playable race and the continued act of putting to lie the racial fantasies of the faction opposing it. Also yes, you will see me coming back with this point every time I see people trying to defend the War of the Thorns. It was a bad scenario - stop regarding it as a default.

As for the rest, you know my contention on this. The text does this job somewhat passably. The visual presentation (which is far more important) largely does not. There are exceptions, yes, but when I think of how the books portrayed the Night Elves’ nearly successful defenses in Ashenvale before things fell apart in Darkshore, it is telling that they chose to, for example, almost entirely omit the fighting in Ashenvale, only portraying its worst and most insulting parts.

(Edit: Although I am still waiting on the citation for the 8:1 KD ratio. Someone called me out on that a while back and I couldn’t find it. It was something that I picked up from conversation around it. I still have no idea where it came from.)

If that’s not enough for you - please go ahead and search through all of that commissioned or produced art that Blizzard did and find for me an example of a Night Elf gaining or exploiting the upper hand on a Horde opponent rather than the other way around. Actually, come to think of it - find that commissioned or produced art period, I think there are like two instances, from across the WoW era.

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On that notion, why should any of the players care for anything. We’re looking at the story of WoW as observers, rather than looking a touch deeper. We, as people may not care. But our characters (if one gives them personality) would deeply care for the prosperity of their people. Ashenvale is important to both factions and either one’s victory would deprive the other.

It may sound like a cliche story, but its a functional and reasonable story. Its not conquest for conquest’s sake. But a desire for resources that has always been the Horde’s purpose there since Classic.

Night Elves showed up for the Battle of Lordaeron, too, so it was all six. It wasn’t even a mirror indeed, since the Alliance didn’t even march through Silverpine Forest or burn down the Bulwark or the Deathknell.

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The ratio of eight to one from A Good War?

Correct. I couldn’t find it in there. I know that the Horde outnumbered the defenders by this amount, but I was unable to find the citation that stated that the Night Elves killed the Horde attackers at this rate.

I dont believe they did. I know the Horde suffered heavy losses from the Wisp ambush, honestly that was probably the single deadliest encounter the Horde suffered during the entire WoT.

I was under the impression that those times when the Night Elves were Hindenburging them at the Farfallen River, and the ambush at Astraanar nearly brought down the whole offensive as well - and that those likely would have if not for Sylvanas’s personal intervention.

Events that we don’t see in the game, certainly. I’m just going to end this post by noting that particular choice.

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oh, that is true. I guess the wisps stuck in my mind because it was so unexpected that wisps can incinerate people without harming themselves.

They are unexpectedly terrifying.

Ad hominem attacks are poor responses to arguments.

Wrong.

The is-ought fallacy occurs when the assumption is made that because things are a certain way, they should be that way.

It can also consist of the assumption that because something is not now occurring, this means it should not occur.

As far as I know A Good War only specified that to succeed Saurfang thought they needed to outnumber the Night Elves by 12 to 1 with Tyrande and Malfurion, and 8 to 1 with only Malfurion. I don’t believe the actual kill ratio is known.

The Horde knew militarily they could not hold the Undercity if they attacked Teldrassil. Sending (most of) the military to Teldrassil, left little to defend anything on the other continent.

The context in Cataclysm vs BFA was different. In BFA the issue of reinforcements was limited due to the inability to utilize navies effectively (supposedly). In essence, as an underpinning to the entire logic of the assault on Teldrassil, was that the navies of each side were shattered.

Welp… this might be enough to make me leave alliance for good. I have always had my druid as a night elf… since late Vanilla… and having blows to NE lore like the Elune situation and now this stuff… its just painful. Why are they doing this to a race that so many people enjoy??? Just so humans can dominate more? I really want to see the writer of these stories and yell at them for being so flipping horrible. What renewal can there be with the limited amounts of night elves and low birth rate with blighted and destroyed lands and massive amount of night elf souls in the maw?? I think its time to give up.

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Just to note, it wasn’t “Unfamiliar Territory”. Not to knock your other points, but this one is just false. Because back in Cata, the survivors of the Shatterspear Tribe were integrated into the Darkspear of the Horde. Once their village fell. And while they likely weren’t to the same level of proficiency as their NE counterparts in those wilds, that doesn’t mean that those wilds weren’t also their homes for the last 10k+ years. No matter what else, the Horde was not going into Darkshore blind.

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You realise the Shatterspear lived in an isolated Vale that only integrated into the mainland after the night elves built a tunnel (presumably) to take the fight to them? We have never seen them in Felwood or other parts of Darkshore before, but now Blizzard pulls a “pass”, out of their butts, from Felwood, even though in game those mountains aren’t even close to the Vale, and you have to go through extensive night elf territory to get there.

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Did the tunnel open during the Cataclysm? Nobody built it?

The Night elves cut through the hills with the Ancient Protectors, presumably, or it collapsed during the cataclysm.
Either way, it doesn’t make sense because the Shatterspear were supposed to be decimated at that point but show up again in large numbers in BfA.