But it’s so nice (or correct verb “fun”?).
Like, if you want to bring up that the Forsaken need their territory back or that Dazar’alor needs to be avenged - cool, I agree.
If you want to use those items to say that the War of the Thorns was a-ok and that you now get to block Night Elves from hitting back? No.
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The night elves didn’t get what they wanted. The Horde says they shouldn’t, and in general the night elves owe the Horde.
It’s very hard to sort out in the 4000+ post mess that is the “Rebuild the Horde” thread, but I think I am finally pinning it down to a core point: the belief that the Alliance’s suffering was greater.
What this ultimately results in is everyone trying to keep score, and because nobody ever agrees on how the scorekeeping should be done, no progress is ever made. My attempts to define a rough common ground of “Everyone suffered roughly the same, just in different ways, and everyone is justified in being miserable, so let’s not take it out on each other” are usually defined by Akiyass, Kyalin et al. as “trying to dodge responsibility for Teldrassil”, as both of them have so kindly demonstrated here.
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Again, wrong. This is the frame that you and others advancing your particular claim advance to distract from solutions, ignore the nuances of our respective experiences (which are critical when we talk about what those solutions should be), and try to block all attempts at making things better.
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One problem. Our misery can cure your misery. Your unhappiness can be cured by leaving the room. And we will not let you be the only one cured. As you do to us.
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Funny, there’s a lot of blue avatars trying to block the considerable effort that Gantrithor put into making things better.
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I don’t see how the Alliance suffering can cure the Horde’s problems, tbh.
Of course, the Burning was the greatest and most damaging hit against the Horde.
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He only healed his own wounds. Not ours.
The most I saw was feedback concerning his rifts idea, and pushback on his ideas that the Alliance should simply be ignored with respect to its interactions with the Horde - which have by this point made immense impacts so large as to be definitional - on huge parts of it.
Look earlier at trying to downplay Zandalar and Rastakhan’s death as being a not being a blow on the Horde. They want their victim scorecard to be higher.
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Very simple. We will prove that we are not toothless. And we will finally repay them for the destroyed school, for the arson of Astranaar, for the seizure of the hotel, for sawing up the forest, for “a little patience”, for the murder of civilians, for the desecration of the land, for Teldrassil, for everything. And they will finally suffer as we did! Well, isn’t that wonderful?
Stop, what? How does the suffering of the Alliance heal the Horde? Hmm. Again, I poorly formulated the proposal.
Rastakhan’s death was obviously meant to “inspire” (for a lack of the better word) Horde players into being more invested in the faction war. Trying to pretend it wasn’t a Horde loss based on a technicality is dishonest, yeah.
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I’m just here to disagree with this sentiment.
Dazar’alor was onscreen, and it was a humiliation of the Zandalari. Not dissimilar from Teldrassil. I don’t care if the army was away or if major characters had the flu. Horde players are right to be concerned about this.
I just disagree with their claims that this should cancel out Teldrassil, or the hidden implication that it has much relevance for Night Elf fans.
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I actually laid out the entirety of the 8.1 patch and the Battle of Dazar’alor from a Horde perspective, because there were some people saying that the Horde had not felt an “unmitigated defeat” or something along those lines at the Alliance’s hands.
I’ve long held that the BfD and Teldrassil are mirrors of one another in the sense that what the losing party perceives as a crushing defeat, the winning party receives with a resounding “meh”. Night Elf players still haven’t stopped talking about Teldrassil, but few Horde really feel all that gung-ho about it. Horde players remain bitter over the streak of losses and defeats in 8.1, but Alliance players usually see their leadership’s timidity as ruining the moment.
Let me add this in.
I specifically think one of the ways in which both battles are linked in that the “winning” side is presented a victory they don’t care much about, while the losing side drowns in bitterness and resentment, so in the end pretty much everyone is unsatisfied.
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World’s End Tavern is that way >>>
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We can go back and forth forever. Horde can say War of Thorns wasn’t a win for the Horde. Even though at the time, there were plenty of Horde players justifying it, and rubbing it in the face of Nelf players. Horde can say Nelf players do not deserve to feel competent and powerful, and do not deserve justice for being wronged, because that means the Horde has to lose again.
But ultimately, the truth is everyone deserves to feel competent and powerful. Horde, Alliance, doesn’t matter. The problem is Blizzard wrote themselves into a corner where one side cannot be satisfied without the other feeling wronged. Blame Blizzard for that.
Don’t blame Horde players for wanting to deny Night Elf players of just retribution, and don’t blame Night Elf players for wanting it. It’s not an argument. Saying “This was bad for X” is not a counter to “This was bad for Y”
It is a pointless waste of time to go back and forth with tic for tat arguments. The point remains: Night Elves deserve just retribution for what was done to them. The fact that Horde players also hate War of Thorns shows that they agree with that fact. They just hate that it has to come at the expense of their own faction, and I hate that too.
Blizzard needs to be better. Stuff like this cannot happen, but unfortunately it did.
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I also do think there is a bit of a weird rift here too. This sort of “We lost something we deeply care about with Teld, which must mean you gained something from destroying it” theme. When someone stole something you were deeply emotionally invested in, its hard to imagine that there was no value in it for the one who stole it. Nothing positive came from that for the other side. Which … is one of the consequences of the Horde being tasked with playing the aggressors in another Faction Conflict without luxuries like “motives”.
That “loss” amounted to nothing positive for either side.
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I don’t think people are saying they zero-sum each other. I think it’s more wanting to adknowledge there were bad losses on both sides.
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