I’m not going to go through the effort of linking you thousands of posts. I don’t care about this detail enough and I already said you are fixating on something that doesn’t really matter.
And you going straight to strawmanning is? Your main counter argument has been centered around something that neither one of us were talking about.
I’ve addressed every point you made in your post when we started talking for real. Yes I can boil your argument down because there was not enough context to matter. You want delves to be more difficult and have more of a “climb”, that about right? More difficult is the problem when you’re trying to squeeze 39 different shapes into one single shaped hole.
No, you really didn’t. You addressed some of it and most of it was quick responses without any depth. Your main focus being about something neither one of us talked about and you still don’t see an issue with that. There was enough context provided for you to discuss.
Right cause giving you multi page response is not enough context.
It’s clear to me that you just want to argue and if that’s what you want then that’s what I’ll do. I’ll go right back to giving you short answers without any depth. I tried, you didn’t follow through.
So then drop it from your argument and make the point on your own without referencing the forums. That’s what we’re doing here. I’m debating you openly and honestly.
You started the strawman when you referenced the forums in the first place.
My main counter to your difficulty in a solo setting is class balance. That’s a fact.
What exactly did I not address. Let’s get into it.
Multi page? I picked apart your “multi page” with equal or more relevant points.
I’m trying to debate you in good faith like you asked. I’m doing exactly that.
Sure, but that takes a level of self awareness that isn’t particularly common. The game shouldn’t be designed such that the painfully obvious best option for getting the gear is the worse option for learning. I’m cool with delves being an option, possibly even the better option in terms of time commitment; but being able to get 4 pieces inside of an hour with delves while it’s a likely outcome a player will get zero items in that same hour in M+ even if all keys complete in time is just too extreme of a slant, IMO.
And just to be clear, I don’t think this should be accomplished by nerfing delve loot. I want to see M+ changes to solves this problem.
Yes, but I also help out a streamer with keys he runs with viewers. My score doesn’t matter to him for me to get into those keys; I ran my first +10 at like 700 IO this season. It’s been very helpful for me since I have much less time to play than I have in season’s past due to having a 12 month at home.
But not everyone has that luxury. If I didn’t have that streamer connection, I would have been faced with the situation of needing to choose between 1 low key for a chance at loot but also failure possibility while gaining crests and score versus at least 2 delves with a 100% chance at loot from both in that same time. And as someone who has gotten KSH multiple times in the past, I have the confidence that I will be able to figure out most of the dungeon mechanics in those higher keys rather than truly needing the low keys. Of course that attitude will hurt me for building score, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a thought that is going through my mind. And while I can only truly speak for myself, I suspect there are others in a similar position as I just described.
Do you have unlimited time to play WoW? When I refer to time, I am referring to the physical time on the clock because of not having an unlimited amount of time, not relating to the M+ timer. Low keys and delves serve the exact same purpose to me - a way to get gear, valorstones, and crests. That’s fine if other players view these activities differently, but keys don’t become engaging for me until we get to about a +8 and delves don’t offer that challenge for me, either.
So yes, when performing an activity solely for the gear, because I need that gear to reach the level of activity that I will find enjoyable, I’m going to heavily weight the time it takes.
No idea. But that’s also not relevant to the point I am making. Delves don’t exist in a vacuum, they have an impact on other parts of the game. The amount of time an average delver takes to get through a delve doesn’t somehow negate the fact that a non-average delver can get through it in like 10 minutes. And the fact that a player who has M+ aspirations can blitz through delves and wind up in a position of having the gear for a +7 but not the experience creates bad experiences for them and the groups they apply to.
They are for many players, whether you like it or not. As I said, for me it’s the amount of champion gear per hour that’s possible; someone else who is unable or chooses not to complete it that quickly doesn’t take away from the potential.
On a related note, I don’t understand the hostility in this response. I have not once asked for the delve experience to change at all. I don’t think the loot should be nerfed. I don’t think the difficulty should be raised. I don’t think Brann should change.
I am merely looking at the total PvE landscape and realizing there is a negative consequence created by how quickly champion level gear comes out of delves. But the solution should come from making changes to low keys and the loot dropped there. Players should have more reason to consider low keys as the place they gear if their goal is to push into higher keys.
You drop it. You assumed I was talking about it in the context of the larger community when I specifically stated otherwise. You do this constantly. You get the context wrong and you formulate an argument around it. It’s circular reasoning non-stop. You can’t control it.
That’s not how it works. You asked me to explain my argument and start from the beginning.
You are not worth my time to have a thoughtful conversation. After what you did I’ll just stick to this.
This is hilarious. You weren’t able to debate in good faith from the start or the restart. My argument was from a birds eye perspective of the overall PvE end-game. Yours is focused around how it impacts you individually.
I haven’t touched a mythic in…3 expacs? I hate timed runs. I don’t really want delves to be changed because M+ players don’t like them. I’m not out here asking for mythics to be changed because I hate them. It’s fine if delves aren’t for M+ players. Or if they’re competing content to M+.
The idea that all content runners must be fed into the M+ system is ludicrous. If delves get nerfed, people will only run them for leveling and it will negate what was an advertised feature for this expac.
Here we have the true troll colors shining through. Can’t debate, won’t give answers and leaves in a huff when they’ve been completely and utterly outclassed.
Good riddance.
For reference since you can’t read.
Look in the mirror. I’ve pointed out exactly how you constantly steer towards circular reasoning and getting the argument wrong contextually over and over again. Even when I point out the wrong assumption you created, you double down. You literally try to tell me what my own argument is while being wrong about it.
So you didn’t say you didn’t want the ilvl to expand because you are fine with it the way it is?
This was your entire counter argument for the expansion of adding Hero and Gilded crests.
Repeat the same line again and again and hope it sticks.
You did no such thing at all.
You keep trying to back track and gaslight. Not happening. This just proves to me you didn’t want to have a good faith discussion to begin with.
I’m talking about the entire gear ilvl numbers. Expanding it further past 636 or whatever it is now.
arguing from the individual standpoint
This is you literally doubling down after I corrected you being wrong about my stance. You literally try to shove your incorrect assertions about what’s being argued down people’s throat even after being corrected.
No you were not because that was never part of the argument. This is you moving back pedaling. There was never even the slightest talk about adding more ilvls to the top ends. It was extremely clear that it was talking about adding Hero track and Gilded crests.
No, I’ve already explained how you are the gas lighter trying to back pedal. I explained my stance in great detail and you come back arguing with me about stuff that was never stated and you even went as far as saying there wasn’t enough context. lmao.
Y’all are just hijacking this thread, it’s getting very cringe
It’s what he wanted. I told him if he wanted to argue that I’ll just argue for the sake of arguing.
2 grown adults arguing on the forums instead of working, I know for a fact that both of you don’t have that much free time.
I have flexible time at work.
Strawmanning your argument using the forums. Do you PERSONALLY want it take a long time?
You’re basing that entire point on what the forums said. Disingenuous at best.
I’ll say I didn’t make it perfectly clear what I intended there. That’s on me. I thought I was talking to someone with a modicum of intelligence. I won’t make that mistake again.
With your entire stance being based on what the forums said. “Taking a long time to aquire”. Yea…great detail lol.
Oh so sorry I brought some actual logic your non existent point. I’ll not try to do that again either. You can’t handle it.
Who is actually doing this? I don’t believe they have the data to support this, because I don’t believe it’s true. Who is going to take somebody into an 8 with a rating of 0?
He’s trying to blame Delves for the problems with M+.
Sounds like you wanted to take it seriously and when I got serious you couldn’t handle it. So back to me calling you what you are, a troll.
Again, this isn’t stawmanning. You incorrectly used it twice now. The point of talking about it from the larger picture has been the staple of my argument from the start. Pointing out how you consistently talk about it in how it relates to you is not a strawman.
I’m not, literally. It was one part of my stance.
See how you make things personal. You and only you.
Right. Keep reaching. It’s clear to me why you are always the first and only to resort to personal attacks.