A warlock, for example, doesn’t play Solo content the same way as in a group, the build and priorities are different.
Also consider that the content must be balanced in some way not only for multiple classes but multiple specs
It’s not comparable to the mage tower either because it was made for specific specs and even the battles that were the same for different classes and specs had balances that differentiated them in damage and timing. In short, it’s much more personalized content than Delves, which is more general. Also, MT doesn’t give gear.
Do people run M+ for gear? Other than +10, it seems the lower keys are for crests (if you’re still not 619), some odds and ends gear, maybe vault… but ultimately low keys preparing you for higher keys like +10.
I got into M+ late and never had done it before. I was trying to get to 2k for the mount, now 2500 for KSH… and to get crests, and +10 vault rewards. But the lower keys were me learning the dungeon and how to play it.
Got data to back that up? Is it just m+ doing delves and not vice versa?
Just because you do a thing doesnt mean everyone does nor do they do it for the same reasons. Forcing other people to play like you is what has been whittling down the player base to what it is today (much less than it was).
Because low keys teach the skills players will need to succeed in higher keys, while delves do not. To make sure it’s clear, my point was specifically in relation to a player who wants to push M+, not as a general statement for someone who wants the gear as the reward itself.
For a player who thinks they will be capable of succeeding in higher keys (including those that will be successful) but are on a newer character and need gear, that gearing phase is just a means to an end. I know for me, running significantly lower keys than I am capable of with appropriate gear isn’t much fun, it’s just a necessary evil. When I have an option to solo a delve in 10 minutes to guarantee a champion piece and unlock hero slots in the vault, that’s pretty tough to turn up compared to 30 minutes in a key that could fail based on the play of the rest of the group for a 40% chance at a champion piece. We all have limited play time, and neither delves nor low keys are going to be particularly engaging, the objectively best option for gearing in this case is a delve so long as I have a coffer key.
If only everyone used them to learn. I came back to WoW this expansion. When I last played M+ wasn’t a thing. So I stepped up 1 level for each key. And I practiced on said level until I felt like moving on wouldn’t be a detriment to future groups.
I’m a tad over 2600 now and pretty done with M+ I don’t care to push harder but am proud of my personal accomplishment.
The gear will come naturally playing this way too.
The point is fair but for any player wanting to push content needs to have a dedication and a drive to improve themselves as a player. The way to do that: low keys whether they’re “rewarding” or not. In this case it’s about striving to become better, not the reward.
People like you who already have KSM on one character can gear through delves then push their own key up to appropriate level and go from there. Honestly, it seems like a win/win for everyone here.
Why is it not surprising to me that an M+ player thinks in terms of time.
Are you even able to define the average time it takes to the average Delves player to finish a Delve?
I remind you that Delves don’t have a timer, people don’t have the time pressure and many play in a more relaxed and slow way, so how do we consider the time factor? Because certainly comparing it with M+ would make Delves lose their point.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone afk in a delve and when I got back my progress was exactly where I left it and I wasn’t removed from the group.
How is it not in good faith to say “vocal majority” when referencing the forums. I stated it in a way to mean that it doesn’t include the larger community. Vocal majority in the context of the forums.
It was all specs.
That’s for Blizzard to do, but using that as an excuse to say that Delves can’t get any more difficult isn’t an argument against it.
maybe, but it’s enough to tell you “wait for the next expansion”, as happened with the M+ during BfA, which were broken throughout the expansion, killing the raid grearing.
I understand class specs are not equal, but that’s not the point. That comes down to tuning and how they design Delves and player interaction.
Do you not see the irony here? I wrote a multi-page long explanation of my viewpoint and it immediately steered towards something that I didn’t mention at all. This isn’t good faith. You addressed very little of what I actually said and made it all about class balancing.
Maybe, maybe not? What kind of argumentation is this.
Still, how can you claim vocal majority? Do you have any kind of proof or data?
Do we know the skill level of all those players? Do we have stats of how many players were completing T8s the first week? We already established there’s a big skill gap in the wow community at large. I don’t know this, but I’d love to know how many “average” wow players were completing those T8s the first week.
Same can be said for the “just tune up the difficulty” argument. I mean it’s possible but it’ll probably cost you a raid tier or two.
You are arguing about something that doesn’t matter in the larger picture. This was a minute detail. Proof? It was all GD was talking about at the time. You can go back if you want. This is a fixation you are having about having to be right about something that doesn’t matter.
Your main argument boils down to delves being “undertuned”. If difficulty tuning is coming into the conversation when talking about an advertised solo experience then class balance has to be addressed.
I know that wasn’t your point but now that it has been mentioned class balance is probably my main complaint about Delves atm. I’ll admit some classes have it pretty easy even running high tier delves but others can struggle quite a bit.
Aside from healing specs I don’t see where it is impossible for any specs but it wouldn’t be a terrible thing to bring some of the worst performers up a pinch.
“Boiling down” an argument is inherently bad faith because you are removing all context. You literally steered the argument away from what I explained instantly. You went straight to creating a strawman argument about tuning instead of having that honest discussion about the things that were actually brought up. There was like two pages of content for you to discuss with me, but instead your focus is about something else entirely that was never mentioned by me or you in the past.