Oh right…. Nice response, just because you say it isn’t so we should just trust you.
It is all connected and mythic plus and raid are very much connected.
Now that we have your disregard for facts at least do some work before you speak.
Look at the drop off in 5-7 keys between now and last season
Kthxbye
Context was: who wants to spend more time in group finder?
Not me certainly, but does anyone?
I guess you don’t enjoy the content, just number go up.
Sure, and I was not trying to call you out in the slightest. My point was just even if he completely assessed your statement correctly, that doesn’t somehow mean I think exactly the same as you even if we fall largely in the same camp on the subject we’re discussing. But that was the claim he was making, which is ridiculous, hence me calling him out on it.
? I care about getting invites, not ilvl.
First off, I have not advocated for:
If anything, I have argued for more.
I have been open about being fine with them adding Hero track and Gilded crests to Delves. The caveat has been about making it congruent with other end-game content because whether we like it or not they do interact with each other.
I have also stated that if Delves were on its own figurative “island” that I wouldn’t care how rewarding it is. They could get Myth track for Delves 0 for all I care if it didn’t interact with the other content. If they had a system like PvP gear down scaling in other content or w.e.
Before TWW and the announcement of Delves, the forums were overwhelmingly vocal about wanting gearing options for solo and/or casual players even if it took a long time to aquire. The latter part of that statement is important to remember because it feels like right now that it got thrown out of the window because they got their gear early and are no long okay with time being a factor. Not surprised.
Objectively speaking, Delves is too rewarding for the difficulty in relation to the other end-game pillars. Solo and casual players were successfully completing D+8 in pre-season gear while getting rewarded with KSM and late-normal raid level gear. This lead to multiple issues across to M+ and Raids. It wasn’t only about them being forced to run Delves to run M+ or Raids, it was also about the players having 605 ilvl before the season even opened.
This is two fold and wasn’t really spoken at depth in the interview. The first part was the nonsensical time gating that happened at the start. We had a full month post-launch before M+ opened up and I think 2 weeks of M0, but uncapped Delves. This lead to the problem Ion discussed about players not having a sense of progression. If M+ came out at the same time as Delves, it wouldn’t have been any where near the degree of an issue.
The second part of the issue is again the tuning that I discussed. The fact that it was easy to get to the max-tier of Delves in pre-season gear exacerbated the problem. Much like how it was stated that there was no on-ramp for M+, the same was true in the opposite direction for Delves. People didn’t need to farm mid-level Delves to work their way up to D+8, they just sprinted straight through the difficulties. This is the problem. In M+ and Raid, you work your way up and farm for gear/crests once you hit a soft-wall.
What I am advocating for is to make the difficulty congruent. This doesn’t mean solo players won’t be able to reach the top. It just means players in general wont be able to reach the top so quickly. This is circling back to the point earlier about time.
How do players progress in M+ or Raids? Some are able to speed through because the have the skill to do so. Others need to take the slower approach by gearing up in lower keys and likewise in raids by farming the same difficulty. What I’m saying is that players should also expect to farm lower levels of Delves to gear up in order to progress if they don’t have the personal skill to skip through.
To make this painfully clear, I do not equate solo or casual players to being low-skill. GD constantly trying to drive the argument of solo playing not being able to get gear if they make it harder is only marginalizing and insulting your own cohort. Let’s be honest about it and cut the hyperbolics. There’s a bell curve of skill in all content. Not all players who raid get to the top. Not all players who M+ get to the top. It wouldn’t be out of question for Delves to offer Hero or Myth track and not all Delvers to get to the top.
No no, I totally agree with that.
This though I don’t think it is necessarily bad design to develop the content to move people along, players just shouldn’t be punished if they don’t want to do a particular content or follow a different path. I think we pretty much agree here.
I’ll play fair. I would be willing to guess (and just a guess not saying it’s a fact) that solo players were so desperate for their own progression path, they’d want it even if it took a long time.
Now, this “even if it took a long time to aquire” was that the sentiment of every solo player or just a few statements from the forums here? I know I’ve never said anything like that. Personally, I don’t want to spend a lot of time on this game now a days. Way too many other gaming options out there. I think Blizzard realizes this and that’s why gear is given a a “decent” pace. Let’s remember, it’s only one hero track piece per week. Maps are such a low drop (I’ve done delves since they released and I’ve only ever seen 3 across 5 characters) they shouldn’t even be factored in.
Honestly speaking, Blizzard cannot tune delves too much harder than they are now. Yes, you can group for them but they were also advertised as a solo progression. There are 39 specs in the game and unless you tune difficulty for each and every spec, you have to go lower to accommodate the specs that don’t perform very well solo. A holy priest and a demo lock are WORLDS apart in the things they can solo.
I agree the time gating was absolutely dumb and players shouldn’t have been able to hoard delve keys. I’m sure that did suck. That really shouldn’t be a problem next season so we move on.
Again, I want to ask, how would you increase the difficulty but still remain fair to the specs that already decently difficult time in T8? A devoker and guardian druid are not equal. They do not have 4 other party members to make a more powerful unit.
The overall gear range could be expanded but I sure don’t want that. It’s enough as it is.
Again, I agree with all solo/casual players are not low skill and that (let’s face it) a lot of wow players aren’t that good.
I hope I’ve put some good faith responses into this but I honestly and truly don’t see why it’s an issue. Let me explain it. I think we can agree that not all delve players will want to raid or do M+, agree? Right now, I’m one of those players and it feels GREAT to be able to get my gear then do it again on as many characters as I want. I don’t go into other game modes, I don’t interact with many people at all. I’m happy with it as it is.
Now the other side. Yes there will be delvers that will want to go into raids/M+. As it stands right now the biggest complaint is from a M+ standpoint. It’s been said delves “invalidate” lower keys. That’s true and not at the same time.
For whatever reason Blizzard decided to absolutely gut M+ and take away some players progression and comfort zone. They had the data and I guess thought those players don’t matter. This has made M+ EXTREMELY punishing, here’s the important part, for the average player. We’ve established that a lot of the playerbase just isn’t that skilled or they just don’t have the motivation to improve.
If a player wants to improve their gear past the point of delves they HAVE to have a desire to improve themselves as a player. How do we do that? We go into “unrewarding” content to learn it. I don’t know how to push players to do that.
It is not possible, it is not possible to make Solo content congruent with respect to Group content, regardless of whether it has lots or little gear, because in a group it matters more than individual skill, therefore you will never be able to put them in line because they are two different types of content. The necessary mentality and the way of playing in both is different.
I don’t understand doing content I don’t enjoy either. I seem to be the opposite of many on the forums. I haven’t stepped foot inside a delve on this alt and I won’t because I don’t enjoy them. I’m having a blast healing 2’s and 3’s right now. Why would I make myself bored to tears by running delves just to get a higher IO but worse gear.
tl/dr: do what you enjoy and don’t force yourself into content that isn’t fun for you
So really all people want is easy content for gear then.
M+ers don’t truly love their own content. I am well geared from delves and I STILL do them. I still see plenty of sub +7 keys in the group finder thingy. People still seem to run the lower tiers of M+.
Of course it doesn’t speak to everyone and we all know the forums doesn’t represent the actual gaming community, but the vocal majority was saying at the time that they wanted a gearing path that didn’t rely on group content even if it took a long time. Even if we remove that caveat of time there is and would be a gearing path for solo players.
This isn’t part of my argument, so you bringing it up as a counter doesn’t add up. I already stated that I would be fine with them adding Hero track and Gilded crests. This meant outside of relying on Maps as long as the acquisition is congruent.
This is dishonest. Are you seriously trying to tell me that Delves+8 is at a good point difficulty right now when people were completing them in the first week? This was also pre-tuning before a month long series of nerfs to the trash and bosses.
You saying that they can’t tune it harder is only labeling solo players as low skilled when I believe solo players can be skilled.
This isn’t really a counter-argument. Obviously Blizzard needs to tune it better and Bran is also a tool that players can use to overcome challenges.
You are clinging real hard to that strawman argument you created just earlier. Difficulty differences between classes and specs are a tuning issue which can be corrected. Especially when going in solo because then tuning can be specifically for that class/spec with less variables.
Again, this isn’t about you or I. You can feel that it’s fine, but clearly it isn’t for many solo players.
I’ll admit it was much better than the usual and if you still disagree then you are entitled to have your own opinion, but don’t call me a troll or elitist if I hold onto mine.
If they expanded Delves to reward Hero and Gilded and tuned it in a way that there is progression between difficulty levels then they wouldn’t need to do “unrewarding content”. They would be able to stay in Delves.
Nothing about this explains why “it’s not possible”. What is mage tower?
Maybe because they find the content fun? If you like M+ and you don’t like Delves, why would you go to the last one to equip yourself instead of equipping yourself with the content you like? At the end of the day you get to the same point, the problem isn’t the Delves, the problem is that your content doesn’t entertain you and you’re just playing a race to see who gets to a point faster. In short, it’s either a problem with the design of your content or a personal problem of yours, not Delves.
Cuz most people like easy mode I guess and lack self control cuz they feel “behind” if they don’t follow the experts gear pathing.
Which is just silly. I’ve leveled a bazillion alts this expansion and I’m never lacking in people to play with on a similar gearing path. I guess feeling left behind from your friends is a valid concern but I don’t have any of those lol
I’m sorry this isn’t in good faith. You can’t claim “vocal majority” just because it fits your argument. You can’t know that. You just said the forums don’t even represent the actual community so please don’t pull your argument from something even you say isn’t representative of the community.
There was also an extremely OP Brann as well. They had to nerf that. Speaking of the players completing them the first week, what specs did they play? All specs? Out of those players completing them the first week, did the majority of those players go on to other content then never touch delves again? Surely you don’t believe all the unskilled wow players were all completing delves T8 the first week. Maybe with how ridiculously OP Brann was to start with but that got nerfed pretty quick.
How do you tune content for all 39 specs to be able to solo?
Class specs are not equal. They could be but if it comes to that what’s the point of playing another class. We’re trying to speak in good faith here and I’ve seen you say twice now
I know we’re not game devs, class devs, nor encounter devs but you’re acting like it’s just flip a tuning switch and problem solved. I can guarantee it’s more complicated than that.
I don’t see any solo players complaining about the gear structure currently. I see a lot of solo players happy right now.
Fair, I’ve dealt with a few downright nasty trolls who share your opinion so admittedly I have been lashing out.
I still say that’s a bigger ask than what you think it is.
For me, it’s honestly not about how easy it is directly; it’s about the time it takes. If delves took longer than a low key or had a worse loot drop rate than low keys, that would make low keys more compelling as a gearing avenue. But the reality is that so long as you have a coffer key, a delve takes 1/3 the time to complete than a single key, is not subject to anyone else needing to play well, and has a 100% drop rate of a champion item. Sure, running a low key will provide more valorstones and crests. But in terms of item acquisition per hour, it’s not even close.
Let’s point you here:
Honest question, why should low keys be a more compelling gearing avenue?