No Ion, Not Everyone Who Delves Wants to do M+

Nope. Wrong.

In this case, it offered players another avenue to get gear without having to put up with M+ or raids and the toxicity that comes with both in the pugging world.

Those players didn’t want to be in your M+ or raid in the first place and was only there for gear. Now those players won’t be bricking your keys.

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I agree. It’s an extreme but very vocal minority.

Absolutely.

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That’s all speculation.

This isn’t a counter argument.

Offering other avenues is fine. I like how you completely ignore the actual argument to focus on this. The part that’s completely off topic and a strawman you build about fragile egos.

The argument is that Delves is part of the PvE end-game and that it is disproportionately rewarding compared to M+ and Raids. If Delves existed in it’s own corner then there wouldn’t be any issues with how rewarding it is. The problem is balancing rewards. The problem isn’t solely that delves are rewarding.

Then let’s nerf the M+ Rewards instead. If the players are just doing it because they enjoy it, then it’ll be no problem, right? In fact, let’s get rid of stats on gear entirely.

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I do m+ for the gear lmao, I’m not about to hide that.

Because they might find that content fun

yea might be. people all have their opinions and you can’t really take them all seriously bc i don’t think blizz looks at these forums very much for changes. they might but i just get the feeling they use metrics/data and they most certainly will see a more clear picture of whats going on than all of us sharing our personal experiences. when they do want some feedback they usually send out a survey or ask for feedback on specific aspects. Just gotta take it all with a grain of salt until they announce what they’re changing or thinking. until then both sides are just going to work eachother up, most likely over nothing. the lead dev himself said he was happy with how delves were going. he said he wanted to adjust the ‘onboarding’ to other areas which kinda says to me theyre rethinking the squish but we will see.

i think most people do m+ for the gear / character prog but i could be wrong there. personally i did my 10s last week for vault and then i started doing lowbie keys bc i just wanted to run with a little less stress and help some peeps time some stuff. it was a good time and ended up being so much more social than the 10s lol. good times though. i just love dungeons but yea the carrot is there for sure

Its wild y’all are still arguing over a thousand posts later when the OP took a single comment from an interview extremely out of context completely.

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I avoid M+ Completely because I find the game type extremely horrible and unfun. I wish the games development didn’t revolve around it so much.

The only time I ever played M+ Seriously was shadowlands, and that’s because I was in a raiding guild that required me to.

So you want to punish an entire player base (casual solo players) because you can’t spend 2 minutes checking their armory or rating?

Delves were meant to be for casuals. It’s not our fault if some people decide to use it for another game style.

Reading between the lines and critical thinking is tough isn’t it?

And how does this impact you??? Nobody seems to explain this part? You think only one small part of the players should experience higher content? How elitist of you.

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Yes, and IO will help groups skip over the players that chose to skip the lower level keys.

But is that really the best design? Some of the players who geared through delves are likely going to be capable in a +7. The group leaders are going to have more applicants to wade through that don’t have the demonstrable capabilities. The players who delved their way to that gear will see a higher percentage of declines to these keys.

Yes, to some degree this is a self-inflicted problem. Players who have any idea how group leaders form groups in M+ could foresee a need to run those low keys as they were delving and/or specifically to build their IO. But even if there are player controlled ways to mitigate the bad, the bad is still the result of the gear design between delves and M+.

I don’t personally find low level keys exciting, they’re akin to farm bosses for me. Yet running them at a lower level is a good idea to learn and practice those mechanics. When we needed both gear and IO from lower level keys, this was fine; players weren’t able to get the gear without getting some exposure to M+. But with delves dropping gear on par with the halfway point of the rewards system from M+, players can bypass the low level M+ and still get the gear.

If the gear per hour commitment were such that low level keys were at least similar to that of delves, it would be much easier for players to rationalize running the low level keys as they get both the IO and gear. But it’s not even close. It takes 2.5 keys on average to see an item, with each key taking an average of 25-30 minutes when factoring in group formation. Until you run out of coffer keys, a T8 delve guarantees a champion item for all players and can be completed in 10 minutes; for those who can solo them that fast, there is no group formation time. Blizzard really needs to find a way to make the appeal of low level keys for gear to not be completely overshadowed by a game mode that is both faster and easier.

No, actually. I want Blizzard to bring back 2-3 of the key levels they removed during DF S4 that will sit between M0 and +2 (possibly with lowering the M0 difficulty a touch) so there is room for Blizzard to put gear commiserate with the effort of delves.

It’s not about whose fault it is. It’s about just how much of an outlier delve difficulty is versus their rewards compared to the effort. Unless there is an iron curtain between delve power gain and the rest of the game, delves do not exist in a vacuum. Yes, there are players that will never touch an M+ for which if they got a full 639 item level set mailed to them it would not impact anybody else.

But there are also players that do delves and something else that has an element of competition. And when delves are this much of an outlier, there are going to be impacts on other areas of the game.

for sure i get that. everyone has different tastes. I just think we can all coexist and have a good time doing it, and not at the expense of other game modes. I personally do not know how much of the games development revolves around it, but from a numbers stand point i feel it’s a fairly popular game mode so i can see both sides to that. the truth is we have zero control over the direction individually. Lets see what they have planned for season 2.

Not really, thanks to modern dungeon design they simply dont make the type of dungeon content I enjoy anymore. I miss people communicating with each other and carefully considering each pull. I miss dungeons feeling like an adventure and actually time investment. Thanks to M+ Type design, every dungeon in the game is goofy arcade nonsense where you struggle to keep up with the tank who pulls 1/5th of the dungeon every pull. This game’s group content has evolved into something entirely isolating, unsocial, and boring.

Why would someone play a game or do something on a game they didn’t enjoy? I don’t understand why someone would do such a thing.

Delves are considered challenging for solo players who mostly do outdoor content. What you consider easy will be hard for another.

Point is here M+ players are crying since the beginning of TWW because they don’t feel special enough anymore. They keep asking for delves to no longer drop good gear for us. We pay the same subscription and we deserve the same quality of life in this game. The chase for progression is the prize here, for every single player. Yet we keep being said we don’t need good gear. That is very elitist and a very old gatekeeping mentally that needs to stop.

It’s casuals that keep the servers up. We never pause our subscriptions. We buy stuff from their shop. If you want their cash cows to be punished because of an inconvenience for a group content player, you need to think long and hard about how many people will quit the game and go to another casual friendly one, removing money from wow and compromising good design for the future.

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personally i think it’s more to do with the hyper efficiency mindset rather than m+ bleeding into lower dungs. there is no timer in those. But it is seen as an obstacle and the quicker and more efficiently you can get through it the better. or at least thats the impression i get. i could be off there too

The majority do and there’s no arguing that. I did the math during SL and early DF and about 30-40% of players, who reached the top rewards, continued on at least 20% above what was needed.

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I don’t. However not being able to get the gear needed to complete the delves at the highest difficulty within the delve itself is a problem.

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