11/06/2018 08:39 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/05/2018 06:53 PMPosted by
Kisin
That's just speculation too, though.
Nope, "Elevated their forms into highly intellgent and graceful beings."
That's explicitly saying elves are of a higher intelligence than trolls.
Actually it doesn't say anything at all. It's not a phrase of comparison. the term used is "Highly" , not higher. maybe the only thing that really changed is the appearance and demeanor of grace, thanks to their enhanced number of digits.
Actually it doesn't say anything at all. It's not a phrase of comparison. the term used is "Highly" , not higher. maybe the only thing that really changed is the appearance and demeanor of grace, thanks to their enhanced number of digits.
That still heavily implies that they weren't Highly intelligent prior to their transformation.
11/06/2018 08:39 AMPosted by
Akiyass
Nope, "Elevated their forms into highly intellgent and graceful beings."
That's explicitly saying elves are of a higher intelligence than trolls.
Honest question, but do you take the time to really read what I write or do you just stop once you read something that offends you?
The speculation on your part is your interpretation of what "intelligence" means in this situation. Which is no more valid than other people's interpretation that it means "acuity with the arcane" rather than "Is smarter in every field".
Especially since "skill with the arcane" is actually consistent with how the two races are presented where as "smarter in every field" is not.
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Blizz confirms that elves are more intelligent than trolls, and the troll players want to make speculative arguments about it... it's nothing really surprising.
The answer is simple. The NEs were nocturnal, so they wake up before dawn. Therefore, they awaken first.
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11/06/2018 02:25 PMPosted by
Akiyass
Blizz confirms that elves are more intelligent than trolls, and the troll players want to make speculative arguments about it... it's nothing really surprising.
So you don't actually read my posts then. Got it, thanks. That explains a lot.
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10/28/2018 10:33 PMPosted by
Jawah
Instead of relying on the description lifted from a manual of a game based off of two DOS RTS's, perhaps using the three lexicons Chronicling the three RTS's, six expacs, and numerous expanded universe media is a better basis for inference.
I don't want to read Chronicles, though. I'd rather read the lore of Warcraft back when it was good.
That's fine if that's what you want to do.... But it's not canon. The canon lore is that Night Elves came from Trolls. You not liking it doesn't make it less canon.
11/06/2018 01:52 PMPosted by
Akiyass
Actually it doesn't say anything at all. It's not a phrase of comparison. the term used is "Highly" , not higher. maybe the only thing that really changed is the appearance and demeanor of grace, thanks to their enhanced number of digits.
That still heavily implies that they weren't Highly intelligent prior to their transformation.
So, that the Dark Trolls of, oh, 15000 years ago were less intelligent than the Kaldorei of, oh, 10,000 years ago? That's entirely possible, but there's nothing in that line that declares them to be smarter than modern trolls.
11/07/2018 08:47 AMPosted by
Kirango
but there's nothing in that line that declares them to be smarter than modern trolls.
There is nothing that declares modern trolls to be smarter than Dark Trolls of 15,000 years ago.
11/07/2018 09:07 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/07/2018 08:47 AMPosted by
Kirango
but there's nothing in that line that declares them to be smarter than modern trolls.
There is nothing that declares modern trolls to be smarter than Dark Trolls of 15,000 years ago.
Correct. There is no statement either way, meaning the matter is in the realm of interpretation and discussion,
which is what we are doing.There is no evidence that the elves are intellectually to superior to any of the modern races (they don't produce peons, but the average non-peon orc is no duller than any elf, and trolls are at least as sharp as orcs)
11/07/2018 09:18 AMPosted by
Kirango
Correct. There is no statement either way, meaning the matter is in the realm of interpretation and discussion, which is what we are doing.
I mean, it seems to be Troll players who are pulling lore out of thin air to imply that modern trolls are now more intelligent than they were back then... which makes no sense, if anything, Trolls have declined since those days.
11/07/2018 09:18 AMPosted by
Kirango
There is no evidence that the elves are intellectually to superior to any of the modern races
Except Chronicle which says so.
11/07/2018 09:21 AMPosted by
Akiyass
Except Chronicle which says so.
https://i.imgur.com/YUoCcNS.gif
11/07/2018 09:21 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/07/2018 09:18 AMPosted by
Kirango
Correct. There is no statement either way, meaning the matter is in the realm of interpretation and discussion, which is what we are doing.
I mean, it seems to be Troll players who are pulling lore out of thin air to imply that modern trolls are now more intelligent than they were back then... which makes no sense, if anything, Trolls have declined since those days.
11/07/2018 09:18 AMPosted by
Kirango
There is no evidence that the elves are intellectually to superior to any of the modern races
Except Chronicle which says so.
Chronicle implies that they are smarter than the dark trolls of 15,000 years ago, not that they are smarter than modern trolls.
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11/07/2018 09:30 AMPosted by
Kirango
Chronicle implies that they are smarter than the dark trolls of 15,000 years ago, not that they are smarter than modern trolls.
And no where in the lore is it ever even implied that there is a difference.
11/07/2018 09:35 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/07/2018 09:30 AMPosted by
Kirango
Chronicle implies that they are smarter than the dark trolls of 15,000 years ago, not that they are smarter than modern trolls.
And no where in the lore is it ever even implied that there is a difference.
I think the claim that a species with short generations not changing in that span of time is the one that would require support.
We also only have one example left of a dark troll, but the noncanon RPG did claim they were a) nocturnal, b)cavedwelling, and c) less intelligent than most other subspecies.
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11/07/2018 10:03 AMPosted by
Kirango
I think the claim that a species with short generations not changing in that span of time is the one that would require support.
Change needs support, otherwise we have to assume a constant, espescially considering that the Troll Empire was dismantled and went into decline.
11/07/2018 10:03 AMPosted by
Kirango
noncanon
disregarded. No longer relevant to canon portrayals of Dark Trolls. The RPG also gave trolls -3 to intellect, and Night Elves received no such penalties, and Blood Elves got intellect bonus. So RPG lore isn't going to help your case anyway.
11/07/2018 10:06 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/07/2018 10:03 AMPosted by
Kirango
I think the claim that a species with short generations not changing in that span of time is the one that would require support.
Change needs support, otherwise we have to assume a constant, espescially considering that the Troll Empire was dismantled and went into decline.
11/07/2018 10:03 AMPosted by
Kirango
noncanon
disregarded. No longer relevant to canon portrayals of Dark Trolls. The RPG also gave trolls -3 to intellect, and Night Elves received no such penalties, and Blood Elves got intellect bonus. So RPG lore isn't going to help your case anyway.
We're both aware that the RPG is noncanon, and nothing in D&D has an odd-numbered stat adjustment in 3.5. Irrelevant, and I shouldn't have brought it up.
WHY would you assume a constant? Evolution is a thing, and this is a race that can achieve near-speciation level adaptations within a generation or two.
11/07/2018 10:16 AMPosted by
Kirango
11/07/2018 10:06 AMPosted by
Akiyass
...
Change needs support, otherwise we have to assume a constant, espescially considering that the Troll Empire was dismantled and went into decline.
...
disregarded. No longer relevant to canon portrayals of Dark Trolls. The RPG also gave trolls -3 to intellect, and Night Elves received no such penalties, and Blood Elves got intellect bonus. So RPG lore isn't going to help your case anyway.
We're both aware that the RPG is noncanon, and nothing in D&D has an odd-numbered stat adjustment in 3.5. Irrelevant, and I shouldn't have brought it up.
WHY would you assume a constant? Evolution is a thing, and this is a race that can achieve near-speciation level adaptations within a generation or two.
Is Evolution a thing in this universe? Most of what we see, evolution only really occurs from magical influence.
Regardless, we have to assume the constant. There is no evidence to suggest there has been any change. Speculation is more likely to yield that trolls have become less intelligent over time.
11/07/2018 10:30 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/07/2018 10:16 AMPosted by
Kirango
...
We're both aware that the RPG is noncanon, and nothing in D&D has an odd-numbered stat adjustment in 3.5. Irrelevant, and I shouldn't have brought it up.
WHY would you assume a constant? Evolution is a thing, and this is a race that can achieve near-speciation level adaptations within a generation or two.
Is Evolution a thing in this universe? Most of what we see, evolution only really occurs from magical influence.
Regardless, we have to assume the constant. There is no evidence to suggest there has been any change. Speculation is more likely to yield that trolls have become less intelligent over time.
I would consider the ways the troll subspecies have adapted to their environments evidence of evolution. Even titan constructs iterate over time.
There's also no evidence that modern elves are actually smarter than modern trolls. None at all, only the line that implies that they are smarter than their own direct forebears. There's inference and common sense that can applied to either of our arguments, but the actual thing we are debating is not a matter of canon.
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It is a matter of canon. Elves are highly intelligent beings, as is typical for most fantasy settings. No one would argue that Trolls tend to be stronger than most races, but the moment someone claims elves are smarter, people lose their minds. Cry some more, is canon.