The first race to "Awaken", the key word is awaken, if you want it to fit in with current retcon'd lore.
We know Tauren, Furbolgs, and Trolls lived long before the elves. According to Chronicle the Cave Trolls near the Well of Eternity became the first Night Elves, they "awoke"
11/02/2018 03:22 PMPosted by Kirango
Of course, I'm a 5e kinda guy these days. Ability penalties feel bad, and there are other ways to thematically reinforce those concepts without mechanically penalizing people for playing the character they envisioned.
I have to agree here. As someone who plays a lot of the more physically imposing races but as caster classes like druid, the -wis or -int was always a frustration. In 5e there are still sub-optimal class/race choices, but you're not outright penalized for making an oddball character.
And really, it's the oddball characters that are the most fun.
It's also vaguely possible that Highborne era night elves were more intelligent than trolls, given that trolls have had 10,000 years to evolve, and develop, where as Night Elf society has been at best stagnant and at worst regressive.
This is talking about awakening to magic, not overall.
11/01/2018 06:21 PMPosted by ReallyhappyYeah and we have told you multiple academic fields trolls excel at over elves.
They don't though. It's speculation, head canon.
11/02/2018 06:52 PMPosted by RoghterNight Elf society has been at best stagnant and at worst regressive.
This is a gross misconception. They have different notions of growth. They seek to work with nature, not to dominate it like Earth humans do. It's outright ignorant to call their society stagnate when they had achieved 10,000 years of peace and prosperity.
They don't though. It's speculation, head canon.
You keep calling it headcanon, but it's not.
Zanza: Many thousands of years ago, while the indigenous trolls of the Zul'Aman empire were battling the invading high elf heathens, great magic was stolen from Zanza. This magic was used by the high elves to enchant their weapons and armor to assist in conquering the trolls of the region.
Player: I think I have heard of this magic.
Zanza: Have you? Then you know how weak and pathetic the high elf version of troll magic was?
The high elves could not understand why a people with their magical affinity could not contend with the powers of troll voodoo. This was an inconceivable notion for the pale skins to understand. They were resigned to using the bastardized version of troll enchantments. I believe they called them 'Arcanum.'
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Zanza_the_Restless
According to in-game dialogue the Amani were superior in the art of enchantment to even the Highborne who came to the Eastern Kingdoms.
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Two things there. We have a potentially unreliable narrator, who is telling us a story from his own troll perspective. Two, being good at one particular thing doesn't make you intelligent.
Not to say that Trolls are unintelligent... That is another discussion. But to say "Hey, the Trolls were better at this at one time" doesn't really prove anything, especially when the elves were able to force them off their land and dismantle their empire despite it....
Not to say that Trolls are unintelligent... That is another discussion. But to say "Hey, the Trolls were better at this at one time" doesn't really prove anything, especially when the elves were able to force them off their land and dismantle their empire despite it....
11/05/2018 02:23 PMPosted by AkiyassTwo things there. We have a potentially unreliable narrator, who is telling us a story from his own troll perspective. Two, being good at one particular thing doesn't make you intelligent.
Not to say that Trolls are unintelligent... That is another discussion. But to say "Hey, the Trolls were better at this at one time" doesn't really prove anything, especially when the elves were able to force them off their land and dismantle their empire despite it....
The point was Elves didn't beat trolls at every academic field, and they only destroyed the ancient troll empires by weaponizing the well of eternity, and training humans in magic to beat the Amani, after stealing troll magics. They elves didn't beat the trolls because they where smarter, they beat the trolls by playing up human fears that they would be targeted next or by basically having a trump card no one else on the planet could compete with (Seriously, Azshara was strong enough when empowered by the well to effortlessly stop Mannorath from trying to strike her)
Elves arent dumb, but they don't beat trolls at every academic field. They are definatly better at Arcane and Druidism, but they are inferior in other aspects.
Trolls are ironically a good jack of all trades race in the setting, they at least decent in most things, with the exception being engineering which they don't really care about. Elves meanwhile are bad at certain things but extremely good at others.
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11/05/2018 02:32 PMPosted by Reallyhappythey beat the trolls by playing up human fears that they would be targeted next
…. Isn't that a smart tactical decision? They overcame a larger and more powerful enemy by tactically and diplomatically outsmarting them....
This is all kind of pointless though, because Blizzard has said out right that Elves are "the elevated and vastly intelligent forms of trolls." Like... that's it right there. lol.
11/05/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Akiyass…. Isn't that a smart tactical decision? They overcame a larger and more powerful enemy by tactically and diplomatically outsmarting them....
This is all kind of pointless though, because Blizzard has said out right that Elves are "the elevated and vastly intelligent forms of trolls." Like... that's it right there. lol.
as i said the elves aren't dumb, and are better then trolls in certain fields, thier just inferior to trolls at others.
11/05/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Reallyhappyas i said the elves aren't dumb, and are better then trolls in certain fields, thier just inferior to trolls at others.
Perhaps, but when it comes to base intellect, Elves are confirmed superior to their troll predecessors. Its the same reason why Elves in most fantasy RPG games, elves get bonuses to Intellect. Its a typical fantasy trope. That's not saying Trolls are stupid, nor is it saying there is no such thing as a troll that could be more intelligent than an elf. But on average, Elves have a higher mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
11/05/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Akiyass
…. Isn't that a smart tactical decision? They overcame a larger and more powerful enemy by tactically and diplomatically outsmarting them....
While it's a smart decision, it's not superhumanly smart, nor is it a strategy that is beyond the mental capacity of trolls. After all, trolls have formed alliances throughout history as well. Most famously with the Mogu and later the Horde.
If anything trolls and elves tend to behave very similarly diplomatically in that they generally don't bother unless they are pushed to desperation.
11/05/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Akiyass11/05/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Reallyhappyas i said the elves aren't dumb, and are better then trolls in certain fields, thier just inferior to trolls at others.
Perhaps, but when it comes to base intellect, Elves are confirmed superior to their troll predecessors. Its the same reason why Elves in most fantasy RPG games, elves get bonuses to Intellect. Its a typical fantasy trope. That's not saying Trolls are stupid, nor is it saying there is no such thing as a troll that could be more intelligent than an elf. But on average, Elves have a higher mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
The ability to reason is debatable (Seriously elves act out on emotions all the time) and they definatly have better memories, but intelligence isn't one singular thing, trolls seem to be quicker to adapt to changes, hell Elisande and Zul where both Prophets, but Zul seemed to be far better prepared for other futures (He prepared for what he did not see, n=knowing his visions where falliable). Another thing is that mental acuity has to do at least parially with education which most trolls lack, hell, with an education Ogres can be a decently smart and quick-witted race as seen on alt draenor. On average the standard elf is smarter, because they can afford to be smarter and live longer, which combined with thier enhanced ability to remember, they should be capable of being quite intelligent. But intelligence is subjective, elves can be quite foolish after all, and tend to react with emotion more then reason in dire situations.
Point is Elves on average are smarter not because the well made them magically smarter, but because the well enhanced their life and memorability, and they have a better education system. And the difference is not truly enough to completely make it so the trolls can't innovate on some things faster then the elves.
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Speculation... it's all "Seems to be" when we have the word directly from
Blizzards mouth that elves are more intelligent than trolls.
Blizzards mouth that elves are more intelligent than trolls.
11/05/2018 03:51 PMPosted by AkiyassSpeculation... it's all "Seems to be" when we have the word directly from
Blizzards mouth that elves are more intelligent than trolls.
Blizzard also told me i would feel faction pride and Sylvanas wasn't an one dimensional evil jerk at the beginning of the expansion, point is, authorial intent and result are often different things. Kinda like how Taurajo made Baine feel weak and how varian made tyrande look dumb, that was not the authors intent, but was the result of said authorial intent.
Intelligence isn't a single variable, it's a multitude of them, and just because you excell at one thing doesn't mean your good at everything that requires intelligence. If i asked a geologist about a whales digestive system, i would not expect to get a better answer then when i ask a marine biologist. Hell there is a reason why Book Smart and Street Smart are different things, both are smarts, but one is academic and the other is how well you can survive in an urban area. One can be a political mastermind yet fail to be able to name all the bones in a human skeleton. Intelligence is such a large subject that covers so many fields that saying ___ race is smarter then ___ without giving sufficient ingame backing could be taken in many different ways.
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11/05/2018 05:32 PMPosted by Reallyhappythat was not the authors intent, but was the result of said authorial intent.
Yeah, but in neither case here was Blizzard's inent expressly stated outright. They were occurences in the lore that can be interpreted in different ways. This has no interpretation, it is explictly said.
11/05/2018 05:32 PMPosted by ReallyhappyIntelligence isn't a single variable
You're right, and you'll find I never said that. What I said was the elves are intellectually superior to trolls, in this case that means greater mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason. The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
11/05/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Akiyass
You're right, and you'll find I never said that. What I said was the elves are intellectually superior to trolls, in this case that means greater mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason. The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
That's just speculation too, though. The quote says nothing of memory or ability to apply knowledge, and there is frankly absolutely nothing in the lore we've seen that suggests elves learn faster or can apply knowledge better than trolls.
If anything elves seem to gain new skills far slower, as even with thousands of years of experience and practice they can be bested in magic by the likes of humans, who are not depicted nor have statements declaring them smarter than trolls.
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11/05/2018 06:53 PMPosted by KisinThat's just speculation too, though.
Nope, "Elevated their forms into highly intellgent and graceful beings."
That's explicitly saying elves are of a higher intelligence than trolls.
11/05/2018 06:01 PMPosted by AkiyassYou're right, and you'll find I never said that. What I said was the elves are intellectually superior to trolls, in this case that means greater mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason. The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
Acquire i will agree, but not so Apply. Elves can act highly foolish. They seem to react emotionally more then logically, and they do have great memories. Acuity i am unsure about, mostly because they seem to not be the most focused if we go by the nightborn, and they still need to study something to understand it. They still have the best memories and an old elf would probably be rivaled in knowledge by an old draenei. They are better at remembering stuff, but their reasoning skills are lacking.
11/06/2018 09:01 AMPosted by ReallyhappyElves can act highly foolish
No more than anyone else, and its not something to be agreed or disagreed on. It's official lore.