11/01/2018 11:22 AMPosted by
Akiyass
I already defined intelligence, which they have a natural affinity for.
And I've explained that 'intelligence' refers to a broad, diverse, and not conceptually linked range of aptitudes.
Or are you actually saying that Kal'dorei have a superhuman affinity for assimilating and applying information, of any and all kinds, across the board?
Wait, is that actually what you're saying? That's adorable.
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11/01/2018 11:25 AMPosted by
Kirango
Wait, is that actually what you're saying? That's adorable.
Your ad hominem isn't going to change the lore lol.
11/01/2018 11:54 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/01/2018 11:25 AMPosted by
Kirango
Wait, is that actually what you're saying? That's adorable.
Your ad hominem isn't going to change the lore lol.
I mean, it's enough to tell that this conversation isn't going anywhere. I understand your desire, as a night elf player, to have
something that can't just be taken away from you, but the idea I'm ridiculing, this idea that night elves are just natural polymaths, has no evidence in any events, historical or current, in the lore.
4 Likes
11/01/2018 12:05 PMPosted by
Kirango
I mean, it's enough to tell that this conversation isn't going anywhere. I understand your desire, as a night elf player, to have something that can't just be taken away from you, but the idea I'm ridiculing, this idea that night elves are just natural polymaths, has no evidence in any events, historical or current, in the lore.
I mean... that's kind of their whole schtick.... Vast, ancient Empire tapped into magical powers unlike any other race. Favored by Wild Gods and blessed by Dragons. Their racial sigil is the "Icon of Wisdom" which symbolizes knowledge and represents a people who learned to treasure wisdom from the follies of the past and thus strove for a better future in fixing their mistakes and working with nature.
I could give you a crash course on Night Elves, man. I could talk about the philosophies from which most of their aesthetic and belif systems are inspired from, and what they mean. I could talk about several instances in the lore when Elves (Not just Kaldorei, all elves) are dominating academic feilds. There is a lot I could bring to the table here.
But I don't have too, for two reasons. One, Blizzard has stated explicitly in the lore that Elves have a natural affinity for intellect. That's the lore that we must accept even if we don't alike it or agree. I don't like Broxigar, but I can't pretend he doesn't exist.
Two, it wont do any good, because you are not here to talk about the lore, you are not here to have a discussion about anything. You are here, challanging explicit and established lore to suit your own head canon. You are 100% acting in the service of your own bias, as if me saying the Elves are naturally intelligent somehow means Trolls are bumbling idiots.
Just because one race is naturally gifted at something does not mean another race is bad at something. Just because Elves are of an above average intelligence does not mean Trolls are stupid.
I figure Aki does mean the processing of information, rather then they are just born 'smarter' then other people. Modern Kaldorei are, for example, just plain terrible mages just like the Blood Elves were not that good at enchanting compared to the Amani.
That's the only thing that makes sense to me anyway.
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11/01/2018 10:21 AMPosted by
Kirango
If they were so smart, why are their leaders all dumb as bricks? Why can't Stormrages come up with "Save the world" plans that don't have "Break the world" as one of the steps?
[/quote]
Sometimes, no matter how smart or wise you may be, there isn't a good answer to a problem. As I recall one orc's brilliant answer to his world's problems was to try to open seven world portals at once. The result of that brilliant idea is called Outland.
10/28/2018 10:33 PMPosted by
Jawah
I don't want to read Chronicles, though. I'd rather read the lore of Warcraft back when it was good.
No one except Blizzard determines what is lore. If they came out tomorrow and said that all orcs are filled with spaghetti instead of organs, and were serious about it, that's now officially lore, and anything stating otherwise that came before it is now retconned.
That's just how it works with this stuff. It's called a Word of God Authority. Anything they say goes, whether it makes logical sense or not, and if it contradicts something older than it, the older contradiction is discarded.
This is not true, or at least, not how it must be. If a new book or piece of lore contradicts what another creator made, with the full authority of the title, it is fully within the playerbase's right to disregard that. Bethesda is famous for renegading on stupid lore decisions and their playerbase ritually decides what is canon or is not based pretty much entirely on their own personal perspective.
If you want proof that Blizzard does this too, and thus has put the power in the players' hands to shape the world, look no further then Med'an. He does not exist. The players made that happen. Therefore there is no 'Word of God', any newer creation is fully up to scrutiny based on the older work, and rightfully should be beholden to it.
11/01/2018 11:22 AMPosted by
Akiyass
I already defined intelligence, which they have a natural affinity for.
Yeah and we have told you multiple academic fields trolls excel at over elves.
Elves have a higher magical affinity then trolls, but trolls aren't dumb brutes. Their crafty, at least decent in every field of magic, and actually come up with military plans. Trolls aren't dumb, and Elves aren't super smart, so any gap between the two is so small it is negligible. And they are better alchemist, they just aren't industrialized, hell in Zandalar you here a goblin and troll actually talk about thier different approaches to alchemy.
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for a few gold pieces anyone can be an intelligent alchemist
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More than likely Dark Trolls were the idiot cousins of the Troll family, ridiculed for their moron status by all of the other Trolls who wouldn't let them join in their Cannibal Troll games, and Elune with her compassion for the underdog, took pity on them and decided to give them a remodel job.
So in comparison to their former selves, the newly minted Night Elves may well be Rhodes Scholars, even if that makes them dead average in intelligence as a race. Affinity for magic is not neccessarily something that correlates with raw brain power.
Affinity for magic is not neccessarily something that correlates with raw brain power.
Depends on the kind of magic. Some are somewhat innate, and merely need a guiding hand, like Druidism or Shamanism. Some convert willpower into magical power, like Priests/Paladins and Warlocks. Arcane, the magic that elevated Night Elves (and that they're attuned to naturally, if not culturally anymore) requires a certain degree of intellect and study. That's why there are schools and libraries dedicated to the Arcane. Jaina herself described it as "like math" for its need of precision and intellect.
Depends on the kind of magic. Some are somewhat innate, and merely need a guiding hand, like Druidism or Shamanism. Some convert willpower into magical power, like Priests/Paladins and Warlocks. Arcane, the magic that elevated Night Elves (and that they're attuned to naturally, if not culturally anymore) requires a certain degree of intellect and study. That's why there are schools and libraries dedicated to the Arcane. Jaina herself described it as "like math" for its need of precision and intellect.
I'd argue druidism isn't so much "innate" as it relies on a different type of intelligence from arcane. This is best represented by the Stormrage brothers.
Illidan, a brilliant mage, completely failed at being a druid while his less arcanely gifted brother excelled. This is likely because druidism is more about intuition and emotional intelligence. Understanding the natural world and your place in it and working alongside it. It's not necessarily any easier or less mentally demanding than arcane study, it just requires a different type of intelligence to wield than what the arrogant and impatient Illidan was good with.
This actually reminds me of the quests in Zuldazar where a troll witch doctor and a goblin alchemist argue about voodoo vs science. The goblin relies on her academic understanding of plants and animals to do her work while the witch doctor used her magic to connect to the animals on an emotional level to get a desired effect.
So who was more intelligent in the end? Both failed in their attempts and the correct answer ended up being to work together. It's a case of emotional intelligence vs academic intelligence.
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Night elves were more fleshed out than most races going into vanilla.
Blizz had these other races, many of which were represented by one or two units, maybe a hero unit with marginal story, that they had to flesh out going into the game.
For better or worse, this sometimes came at the expense of the already developed races. Night elves caught a lot of this. The Troll thing was speculation for a long while, I don't even know if it was initially intended to be the case. The Tauren being druids before the night elves, then forgetting about it (is this still a thing?) The immediate obliteration of N.E. males being sleepy time druids and females being a warrior caste (not done for the sake of another race, but for playability).
As for the troll-NE thing, it started with a book called "The Twin Empires" which in world mentioned that NE's came from Dark Trolls. Devs said it was an unconfirmed theory initially, then later made it canon.
I'd argue druidism isn't so much "innate" as it relies on a different type of intelligence from arcane.
This is likely because druidism is more about intuition and emotional intelligence. Understanding the natural world and your place in it and working alongside it. It's not necessarily any easier or less mentally demanding than arcane study, it just requires a different type of intelligence to wield than what the arrogant and impatient Illidan was good with.
Oh, I don't disagree, or think any magic is harder or easier based on how you access it. I just counted Druidism and Shamanism as
somewhat innate, because of that intuitiveness. Though there is some conventional study, you can't just crack open a book and learn how to emotionally appeal to flora and fauna, or barter with and balance the elements. And Arcane is usually the opposite, being mostly raw intellect and coventional study, with intuition playing a smaller, more subtle role.
11/02/2018 05:40 AMPosted by
Zamari
The Tauren being druids before the night elves, then forgetting about it (is this still a thing?)
Per Chronicle, the proto-Tauren Yaungol learned nature magic from Cenarius before migrating south, into the lands of the Mogu empire. Some fled the empire back north. They reuinited with Cenarius in central Kalimdor, and started back using nature magic, with the Well of Eternity eventually shaping them into the Tauren we know today. Yet, Chronicle still says that Malfurion was the first mortal Druid, as proclaimed by Cenarius. So, presumably the Tauren proto-druids were generic practitioners of Nature magic, like Gilnean harvest witches.
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I'd argue druidism isn't so much "innate" as it relies on a different type of intelligence from arcane.
This is likely because druidism is more about intuition and emotional intelligence. Understanding the natural world and your place in it and working alongside it. It's not necessarily any easier or less mentally demanding than arcane study, it just requires a different type of intelligence to wield than what the arrogant and impatient Illidan was good with.
Oh, I don't disagree, or think any magic is harder or easier based on how you access it. I just counted Druidism and Shamanism as somewhat innate, because of that intuitiveness. Though there is some conventional study, you can't just crack open a book and learn how to emotionally appeal to flora and fauna, or barter with and balance the elements. And Arcane is usually the opposite, being mostly raw intellect and coventional study, with intuition playing a smaller, more subtle role.
11/02/2018 05:40 AMPosted by
Zamari
The Tauren being druids before the night elves, then forgetting about it (is this still a thing?)
Per Chronicle, the proto-Tauren Yaungol learned nature magic from Cenarius before migrating south, into the lands of the Mogu empire. Some fled the empire back north. They reuinited with Cenarius in central Kalimdor, and started back using nature magic, with the Well of Eternity eventually shaping them into the Tauren we know today. Yet, Chronicle still says that Malfurion was the first mortal Druid, as proclaimed by Cenarius. So, presumably the Tauren proto-druids were generic practitioners of Nature magic, like Gilnean harvest witches.
Druidism's status as an innate form of magic is in a weird place. Gold-eyed night elves explicitly had a natural talent for it, but Illidan's personality was such a poor fit that it never clicked for him. Malfurion lacked the gold eyes/talent, but became THE druid because of dedication.
More than likely Dark Trolls were the idiot cousins of the Troll family, ridiculed for their moron status by all of the other Trolls who wouldn't let them join in their Cannibal Troll games, and Elune with her compassion for the underdog, took pity on them and decided to give them a remodel job.
So in comparison to their former selves, the newly minted Night Elves may well be Rhodes Scholars, even if that makes them dead average in intelligence as a race. Affinity for magic is not neccessarily something that correlates with raw brain power.
See, that, along with 'they are naturally gifted at the thought patterns used in arcane formulae' are both suggestions I've made for logical ways to interpret that line without getting into a super-broad and misleading definition of intelligence that's uncomfortably reminiscent of a lot of unscientific eugenics arguments. Like, the line is canon, but that doesn't put subtleties of meaning beyond dispute.
Aki doesn't like discussions of interpretation because they don't translate to "Night elves get +2 intelligence at character creation."
1 Like
11/02/2018 07:11 AMPosted by
Kirango
More than likely Dark Trolls were the idiot cousins of the Troll family, ridiculed for their moron status by all of the other Trolls who wouldn't let them join in their Cannibal Troll games, and Elune with her compassion for the underdog, took pity on them and decided to give them a remodel job.
So in comparison to their former selves, the newly minted Night Elves may well be Rhodes Scholars, even if that makes them dead average in intelligence as a race. Affinity for magic is not neccessarily something that correlates with raw brain power.
See, that, along with 'they are naturally gifted at the thought patterns used in arcane formulae' are both suggestions I've made for logical ways to interpret that line without getting into a super-broad and misleading definition of intelligence that's uncomfortably reminiscent of a lot of unscientific eugenics arguments. Like, the line is canon, but that doesn't put subtleties of meaning beyond dispute.
Aki doesn't like discussions of interpretation because they don't translate to "Night elves get +2 intelligence at character creation."
In the D20 game their modifiers were +2 Wisdom/Dexterity -2 Charisma.
In the D20 game their modifiers were +2 Wisdom/Dexterity -2 Charisma.
Except in the other one, where they had +2Dex/Wis, -2 Int.
I'm not kidding. In the Warcraft RPG (as opposed to the World of Warcraft RPG), they had an intelligence penalty.
Of course, I'm a 5e kinda guy these days. Ability penalties feel bad, and there are other ways to thematically reinforce those concepts without mechanically penalizing people for playing the character they envisioned.
11/02/2018 03:22 PMPosted by
Kirango
In the D20 game their modifiers were +2 Wisdom/Dexterity -2 Charisma.
Except in the other one, where they had +2Dex/Wis, -2 Int.
I'm not kidding. In the Warcraft RPG (as opposed to the World of Warcraft RPG), they had an intelligence penalty.
Of course, I'm a 5e kinda guy these days. Ability penalties feel bad, and there are other ways to thematically reinforce those concepts without mechanically penalizing people for playing the character they envisioned.
The -2 charisma fit the Night Elves the same way it did for Dwarves, they're standoffish and really don't play well with othes.
11/02/2018 03:22 PMPosted by
Kirango
In the D20 game their modifiers were +2 Wisdom/Dexterity -2 Charisma.
Except in the other one, where they had +2Dex/Wis, -2 Int.
I'm not kidding. In the Warcraft RPG (as opposed to the World of Warcraft RPG), they had an intelligence penalty.
Of course, I'm a 5e kinda guy these days. Ability penalties feel bad, and there are other ways to thematically reinforce those concepts without mechanically penalizing people for playing the character they envisioned.
It makes sense in the RTS game, the Night Elves were of the Stupidly Stubborn mode. (How else can you describe them when Tyrande has to slaughter all of Maiev's Wardens to enforce her release order.?) So those mods are appropriate for the RTS incarnation of the race.
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