10/30/2018 01:24 PMPosted by
Kirango
I mean, there's the fact that all current depictions point toward the trolls being no less intelligent than the night elves.
Vague depictions that are left to interpretation against Chronicle expressly saying the Well of Eternity "Elevated their forms into elegant and vastly intelligent beings."
Not to mention that this is the typical elf trope in fantasy. In every Fantasy RPG, elves are mostly likely to have massive stat bonuses to intelligence.
Basically, Blizzard has stated this explicitly in the lore, and every counter argument is anecdotal, or far reaching speculation.
10/30/2018 01:29 PMPosted by
Akiyass
Vague depictions that are left to interpretation against Chronicle expressly saying the Well of Eternity "Elevated their forms into elegant and vastly intelligent beings."
Not to mention that this is the typical elf trope in fantasy. In every Fantasy RPG, elves are mostly likely to have massive stat bonuses to intelligence.
Basically, Blizzard has stated this explicitly in the lore, and every counter argument is anecdotal, or far reaching speculation.
Intelligence is subjective and covers a massive range of types of intelligence. We know trolls are completely capable of out-thinking elves in terms of military strategy and tactics depending on the individual, and we know the Amani were more advanced in enchantments than the High Elves, who had to reverse engineer the Amani magic to compete.
Making the statement "elves are smarter than trolls" is just vague, useless nothing unless we're shown how they are smarter than trolls within the story.
Seriously. All elves are addicted to magic. Night Elves just get theirs from the Emerald Dream, which is normalized in their society, but many of their druids do show signs of overexposure.
This isn't true. Night elves get their fix from a super diluted drop from the Well of Eternity that is used to create moonwells. The Emerald Dream doesn't produce magical energy and druids do not suffer magical addiction. Malfurion's mutations were from being stuck in the Dream for too long and his body changing to adapt to that state, not from exposure to any type of energy.
3 Likes
10/28/2018 10:23 PMPosted by
Jawah
Quote taken from an official battle.net page for WC3.
http://classic.battle.net/war3/races.shtml
The reclusive Night Elves were the first race to awaken in the World of Warcraft. These shadowy, immortal beings were the first to study magic and let it loose throughout the world nearly ten thousand years before Warcraft I. The Night Elves' reckless use of magic drew the Burning Legion into the world and led to a catastrophic war between the two titanic races. The Night Elves barely managed to banish the Legion from the world, but their wondrous homeland was shattered and drowned by the sea. Ever since, the Night Elves refused to use magic for fear that the dreaded Legion would return. The Night Elves closed themselves off from the rest of the world and remained hidden atop their holy mountain of Hyjal for many thousands of years. As a race, Night Elves are typically honorable and just, but they are very distrusting of the 'lesser races' of the world. They are nocturnal by nature and their shadowy powers often elicit the same distrust that they have for their mortal neighbors.
So if Night Elves were the first race to awaken in WoW, doesn't that mean that they are an older race than Trolls?
It just means they studied arcane magic first. That's WOW's definition of "awakening".
10/30/2018 01:29 PMPosted by
Akiyass
Vague depictions that are left to interpretation against Chronicle expressly saying the Well of Eternity "Elevated their forms into elegant and vastly intelligent beings."
Not to mention that this is the typical elf trope in fantasy. In every Fantasy RPG, elves are mostly likely to have massive stat bonuses to intelligence.
Basically, Blizzard has stated this explicitly in the lore, and every counter argument is anecdotal, or far reaching speculation.
Intelligence is subjective and covers a massive range of types of intelligence. We know trolls are completely capable of out-thinking elves in terms of military strategy and tactics depending on the individual, and we know the Amani were more advanced in enchantments than the High Elves, who had to reverse engineer the Amani magic to compete.
Making the statement "elves are smarter than trolls" is just vague, useless nothing unless we're shown how they are smarter than trolls within the story.
Seriously. All elves are addicted to magic. Night Elves just get theirs from the Emerald Dream, which is normalized in their society, but many of their druids do show signs of overexposure.
This isn't true. Night elves get their fix from a super diluted drop from the Well of Eternity that is used to create moonwells. The Emerald Dream doesn't produce magical energy and druids do not suffer magical addiction. Malfurion's mutations were from being stuck in the Dream for too long and his body changing to adapt to that state, not from exposure to any type of energy.
"changing to adapt to that state," as in, the unstable phenotype that elves inherited from trolls responding to the ambient magic of the Dream (this IS a thing, you might recall the dryad in Felwood pointing out that Emerald magical bleedthrough could even be mistaken for Fel magic by the uninitiated 'because they're both green!'.
And we see a lot of druids with animal or plant-like features, just none so profoundly as Malfurion.
I will clarify that the universal magical addiction of elves, just with different flavors and foci, is a matter of inference, not declared canon.
1 Like
10/31/2018 05:26 PMPosted by
Kisin
We know trolls are completely capable of out-thinking elves in terms of military strategy
Do we?
10/31/2018 05:26 PMPosted by
Kisin
and we know the Amani were more advanced in enchantments than the High Elves
There is no source for this.
I get that Trolls might be your fav race or whatever, but honestly, Chronicle expressly states that the Night Elves are the highly intelligent, elevated froms of Trolls. This isn't to say Trolls are stupid, only that intelligence is not inherent in their biology the same way elves are.
In D&D, an Orc Wizard is not going to be as optimal as an Elf Wizard... that doesn't mean you can't have a powerful Orc Wizard.
11/01/2018 09:20 AMPosted by
Akiyass
10/31/2018 05:26 PMPosted by
Kisin
We know trolls are completely capable of out-thinking elves in terms of military strategy
Do we?
10/31/2018 05:26 PMPosted by
Kisin
and we know the Amani were more advanced in enchantments than the High Elves
There is no source for this.
I get that Trolls might be your fav race or whatever, but honestly, Chronicle expressly states that the Night Elves are the highly intelligent, elevated froms of Trolls. This isn't to say Trolls are stupid, only that intelligence is not inherent in their biology the same way elves are.
In D&D, an Orc Wizard is not going to be as optimal as an Elf Wizard... that doesn't mean you can't have a powerful Orc Wizard.
Smolderthorn Idols outright show that the Amani were better enchanters then the Highborn, little surprise that Zanza the Restless became a Loa since he was one of those absurdly talented enchanters. To counter this, the High Elves stole Troll magic and passed it off as their own.
2 Likes
10/30/2018 01:29 PMPosted by
Akiyass
10/30/2018 01:24 PMPosted by
Kirango
I mean, there's the fact that all current depictions point toward the trolls being no less intelligent than the night elves.
Vague depictions that are left to interpretation against Chronicle expressly saying the Well of Eternity "Elevated their forms into elegant and vastly intelligent beings."
Not to mention that this is the typical elf trope in fantasy. In every Fantasy RPG, elves are mostly likely to have massive stat bonuses to intelligence.
Basically, Blizzard has stated this explicitly in the lore, and every counter argument is anecdotal, or far reaching speculation.
Show, don't tell. As Kisin points out, "intelligence" is incredibly broad and vague, covering a massive range of aptitudes, in which the night elves are not depicted to be more proficient than trolls.
Your assertion is at best a case of Informed Attribute, at least relative to today's trolls. It is, of course, entirely possible that modern trolls have come a long way since the Dark Trolls of 15,000 BDP, and that the night elves are smarter than they were, although that implies that those dark trolls possessed subhuman intelligence, since the Kaldorei are in no way depicted with superhuman mental faculties.
3 Likes
11/01/2018 09:25 AMPosted by
Kirango
Show, don't tell.
This is Blizzard we're talking about.
11/01/2018 09:46 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/01/2018 09:25 AMPosted by
Kirango
Show, don't tell.
This is Blizzard we're talking about.
And I've already posited a perfectly logical interpretation of the line in question, one that's actually decently supported by what we've been shown, but that doesn't translate to a +2 Intelligence bonus for Kaldorei characters, so you don't like it. (btw, you're thinking of Agility/Dexterity in terms of ubiquitous Elven attribute)
They adapted to the Well, specifically, and their brains evolved to readily grasp Arcane magic, specifically.
That's why they don't seem any smarter than anyone else: they aren't, except in that specific sphere.
2 Likes
11/01/2018 10:02 AMPosted by
Kirango
perfectly logical interpretation
You over-extrapolated until the lore fit your own head canon. When something is explicitly said in the lore, you can't "interpret" it into claims that were not made, and still be correct.
11/01/2018 10:13 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/01/2018 10:02 AMPosted by
Kirango
perfectly logical interpretation
You over-extrapolated until the lore fit your own head canon. When something is explicitly said in the lore, you can't "interpret" it into claims that were not made, and still be correct.
You are arguing for something that has been stated, but literally NEVER been depicted, in any of the games or supplemental materials. I'm trying to synthesize what they've said with what they've shown, and that's exactly what I've done.
If they were so smart, why are their leaders all dumb as bricks? Why can't Stormrages come up with "Save the world" plans that don't have "Break the world" as one of the steps?
Like, what, in your mind, are they naturally better at? What's your actual argument?
2 Likes
11/01/2018 10:21 AMPosted by
Kirango
Like, what, in your mind, are they naturally better at? What's your actual argument?
I mean, I don't need an argument because it has been explicitly said in the lore....
And Malfurion was the mastermind who saved the World from the Burning Legion twice, and his Brother saved the world the third time. So your argument is literally "If Malfurion was so smart, then why couldn't save the world better than he already did? Despite having a plan that no one else had."
I'm sorry that trolls don't have a natural affinity for advanced intellect, but we we can't have everything we want... Each race has their own strengths and weaknesses. I don't think anyone is denying the Trolls are naturally stronger than humans.... And it so happens that elves are naturally more intelligent than other races.
I think the joint Blood Elf and Nightborn outpost best emphasizes the problem with your argument.
The Nightborn are immensely intelligent..in the arcane, able to run an entire society on magic alone.
Outside that city? they don't know how to hold a shovel.
2 Likes
11/01/2018 10:30 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/01/2018 10:21 AMPosted by
Kirango
Like, what, in your mind, are they naturally better at? What's your actual argument?
I mean, I don't need an argument because it has been explicitly said in the lore....
And Malfurion was the mastermind who saved the World from the Burning Legion twice, and his Brother saved the world the third time. So your argument is literally "If Malfurion was so smart, then why couldn't save the world better than he already did? Despite having a plan that no one else had."
I'm sorry that trolls don't have a natural affinity for advanced intellect, but we we can't have everything we want... Each race has their own strengths and weaknesses. I don't think anyone is denying the Trolls are naturally stronger than humans.... And it so happens that elves are naturally more intelligent than other races.
In what way? What are they better at?
"Smarter," in and of itself, can mean too many things to actually mean anything. What have they displayed an aptitude for, consistently enough to call it a racial trait?
1 Like
11/01/2018 10:37 AMPosted by
Darethy
the problem with your argument.
It's not my argument, it's explicitly stated lore. This isn't debatable.
11/01/2018 10:39 AMPosted by
Kirango
In what way? What are they better at?
Intelligence... do you not know what that means?
Intelligence:
The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
A person or being with the ability to acquire and apply knowledge.
A measure of mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
In D&D, Elves get bonuses to Intelligence. An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning. The Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion Skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Intelligence Checks.
11/01/2018 10:44 AMPosted by
Akiyass
11/01/2018 10:37 AMPosted by
Darethy
the problem with your argument.
It's not my argument, it's explicitly stated lore. This isn't debatable.
11/01/2018 10:39 AMPosted by
Kirango
In what way? What are they better at?
Intelligence... do you not know what that means?
Intelligence:
The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
A person or being with the ability to acquire and apply knowledge.
A measure of mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
In D&D, Elves get bonuses to Intelligence. An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning. The Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion Skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Intelligence Checks.
So, your assertion is that... elves in general? Or just Kaldorei? Are better at acquiring or applying knowledge or skills, are more logical, and can process data faster?
Face it, sparky, the only trait you've mentioned that we actually see in any of the lore is their memory- they share with Draenei the ability to flawlessly remember things from thousands of years ago. They certainly aren't better at learning or deductive reasoning, and in terms of mental acuity, Zul is better at Xanatos Speed Chess than any elf we've seen.
Incidentally, here in the real world, we know that 'intelligence' is a broad and diverse category of aptitudes, covering everything from spatial reasoning to emotional intuition to critical thinking, and being good at one is absolutely no assurance of being good at the rest. I was asking, in light of that reality, what aptitudes you were ascribing to the children of the stars.
Addendum: the D&D definition of Intelligence, especially vis-a-vis its relationship with Wisdom, changes every edition.
3 Likes
Sorry the lore bums you out. But that's what we're given.
11/01/2018 11:15 AMPosted by
Akiyass
Sorry the lore bums you out. But that's what we're given.
But that word, on its own, is too broad to mean anything. That's why I'm asking what it means to
you.What are elves better at?
2 Likes
Not enchanting apparently.
2 Likes
I already defined intelligence, which they have a natural affinity for.