What, lol? I hadn’t noticed.
Go back to the Epilogue too:
“Now Genn faced Anduin. “There was no violence. No…anger, or hate. Not even hard words, it seemed. And while those happy reunions were remarkable, extraordinary, it struck me that this was even more important. Because if humans and Forsaken could meet, with so much emotion involved, and disagree—dislike or even be repelled by one another—and simply walk away…”
Excerpt From: Christie Golden. “Before the Storm (World of Warcraft).”
Yeah, I remember Genn’s words there too and I actually see them as fundamental proof that Humans and Forsaken can share Lordaeron. Maybe they can even share Capital City/Undercity. Maybe they can even share Stormwind, and Kul’Tiras, and Gilneas, and Stromgarde.
Because the truth is that you don’t need to like someone to share a city, or a nation, or an identity with them. You don’t even need to like someone to share their blood.
I unironically think that a portion of the Forsaken should join the Alliance, perhaps as a Lightforged Undead variant, because I believe that it’s actually conceivable lorewise now. Nothing would go further to signify the agony of the Third War’s resolution and that everyone can finally start moving past it.
I just can’t imagine being this hard a human fan. The most boring race in the game. WoW’s greatest downfall is pandering to humans as much as they do, and yet human players still say they don’t have enough?
The Alliance is practically a monument of Human diplomatic imperialism.
Which is probably where the sticking point comes into play, saying ‘The Alliance Claims’ recenters the focus on the faction vs faction character that underscores the game (which is probably where the detriment of the faction system is). It becomes less about a story of a people coming together, and more about one faction losing something to the other.
I can guarantee for sure that this would not be anywhere near as controversial or heated a topic if there was no faction system, or if the Forsaken had been Alliance in vanilla.
And to be fair, this is kind of reflected in-universe as well. In BtS Anduin has the guards investigate popular sentiment in Stormwind towards the Forsaken, and apparently the most common viewpoint for an average human is less anti-Forsaken and more anti-Horde.
They are fine with tolerating or even integrating the Forsaken and generally still see them as their fallen brethren more worthy of pity than hatred. What they hate is the Horde exploiting the Scourging of Lordaeron and the wrenching apart of families that resulted from it for its own geopolitical gains.
Lots of humans believe that the Forsaken are simply being used as a device for Horde conquest and resent the Horde for that violation, and that human-Forsaken relations would be a lot better were it not for Sylvanas and the Horde purposely keeping them divided.
Ultimately this seemed to be a sentiment that Calia herself believed to an extent in BtS, given her impulsive actions at the Gathering.
I should bookmark this quote
You missed the rest of the quote.
Yes, you claim that humans are insufferably boring but simultaneously believe that they’ve been excessively pandered to, even though if they were being excessively pandered to they wouldn’t be boring.
They’re boring because all their most interesting stuff was shaved off for the sake of the Forsaken.
Yeah, those are not contradictory things. One flaw of WoW is they pander to a boring race.
I mean, Stormwind’s been the representative of the Human race for… 17 years at this point irl? That’s a lot of time to not create an interesting character specific to Stormwind itself.
Heck, the Warcraft 2 to Warcraft 3 TFT timeframe was only 8 years irl.
EDIT: Err, character in the ‘nation’ sense, not character-character.
And I’m proposing that they be made less boring by allowing them to reclaim their core identity from the RTS, with all the positive and negative baggage that represents.
But you don’t want that to happen because you don’t want humans to be interesting, you want humans to be miserable.
Stormwind’s specific character should have been that it was a melting pot of humanity which is one of the ways that I propose Stormwind be made more interesting AND humanity’s historical identity to be acknowledged.
I think I’ve already said that part of the point of BtS is to fill in the Forsaken. Move them out of where they had been stuck as “evil” in the story.
Don’t be surprised though, that Blizzard doesn’t seem to be giving up Factions just yet.
In pure story, both Factions should be peaceably interacting more.
Now this is a change though. That would be a new Undead, not an old one. And that’s likely to carry with it the Alliance being bad guys for an expansion.
You’re generalizing a lot here… Anduin had to vet everyone, and refuse people. IIRC it was the Alliance that pushed Sylvanas and the Forsaken away before.
Be careful, assuming that doesn’t turn into some kind of greater evil is a stretch right now.
Seven kingdoms! Stormwind wasn’t just the other kingdoms backyard. In-game Humanity needs more fleshing out of its other kingdoms, not just linked to Lordaeron.
I don’t even care at this point so long as it mirrors the Horde experience of being bad with no negative consequences.
It’d be cathartic to have a few expansions of the Alliance Lightforging Horde NPC’s to “willingly” join the Alliance, and have those Lightforged stay Alliance even after the Alliance is defeated.
I’m going by the narration of the book and the reports that the guards gave Anduin regarding human sentiment on the Forsaken.
Yeah humans had to be vetted but that wasn’t just because of concerns that the humans would be aggressive. It was also because the list of people who could attend was so small since Sylvanas was only letting desolate council members attend, and even then only people that those council members submitted on a list.
Plus, there were probably people on both sides who couldn’t attend simply because of their position. High ranking personnel weren’t permitted on the field at the Gathering, nor were soldiers in general.
That’s my headcanon for why the player characters weren’t invited to such a diplomatically sensitive event. The presence of a PC on either side would inevitably be viewed as a threat by the other because players are walking armies.
It was Sylvanas and the Forsaken who pushed the Alliance away by betraying them at Capital City following Balnazzar’s defeat.
Mostly Sylvanas though, hence why human contempt was so focused on her specifically.
Losing Lordaeron isn’t even necessarily the reason human fans are disgruntled. Lordaeron (whether people want to admit it or not) is an enormous part of the Human and overall Alliance story. It’s where the Alliance itself was founded. It’s where a large portion of the Alliance/Human story in WC3 took place. It’s where many of the Alliance’s iconic heroes & characters are from.
One of the reasons with this and why many are disgruntled is because come WoW the Human story was largely disconnected from the events of WC3. Stormwind had no role whatsoever in WC3. The only named character they had was Gavinrad the Dire and he wasn’t really a representation of SW but rather just a Knight of the Silver Hand. Even Gilneas had more relevance to WC3 in the sense that they sent a Brigade to be part of Jaina’s expedition. There was no real continuation of that in WoW. Stormwind could have worked if they had made the refugees from the North more integrated in the story with characters of their own but they were pretty much ignored.
Then throughout CATA/MOP almost every remnant of Alliance Lordaeron was destroyed by the Forsaken/Horde. Namely Southshore & Theramore along. I still remember there being pushes in the CATA/MOP Era to even deny the Humans from reclaiming Stromgarde or getting Kul Tiras. Arguing for Stromgarde to be a Forsaken kingdom and for Kul Tiras to be destroyed or neutral.
There’s a lot of reasons why Human & Alliance fans in general are disgruntled specifically with Lordaeron’s situation. Denying the Alliance connection or straight up giving those themes to the Forsaken/Horde just invalidates some of the most important pieces of Alliance history.
I would also add, to sweeten the deal with non-human players who are frustrated with the prevalence of humans in the meta-narrative, that more focused development of humans within the context of the Alliance specifically would probably lead to both richer human lore and fewer humans dominating the meta-narrative because they would actually have something to do other than “whatever the current expansion is”
Like, “Anduin is sitting this expansion out because there’s so much diplomacy and paperwork he needs to do with the restoration of Stromgarde in Arathi and Lordaeron in the former Plaguelands so he’ll be too busy to do stuff in Shadowlands, maybe an undead character can be the Shadowlands guy since the Forsaken are the ones searching for a purpose”
I don’t think such an excuse would suit a great user of Light. Unless a visit to Shadowlands would have taken place on a more peaceful occasion than saving the world.
Must we turn every thread into a “who deserves Lordaeron?” debate? Are you people not tired?!!?! xD
Re the OP - I’d love to see new cities (or at least towns) for the Night Elves and Forsaken. I’d love to see Hyjal fortified for the Kaldorei… a massive city at Nordrassil would be boss. But at the same time I sort of want something cool done for Darkshore, keep a bit of a naval presence at Auberdine.
That said, my sneaking suspicion is that the events of Shadowlands will somehow lead to Teldrassil being restored to life, along with the people who perished there. Probably sounds crazy but I just have a hunch.
For the Forsaken I’d love to see the Undercity and Brill restored, but I’d also be totally down for the Forsaken trying to settle the Plaguelands, backed by the Sin’dorei in Quel’thalas. Maybe with a new mad Gothic Stratholme as the capital… I’d vibe with that!
Like the Night Elves though I suspect a return to the status quo - they’ll just de-blight Undercity and reoccupy it… although go pretty much back to their pre-Cata strength, controlling only really Tiristfal itself.
I’d love to see Bilgewater Harbor/Theramore size “towns” for the other races who don’t yet have one though. That’d be pretty mad. I’d love to see a void elf town for instance - that’d be awesome!
For three or four years in a row, the night elves sang (created themes, turned other people’s themes into their own) about Teldrassil, genocide and a hopeless future.
Everything is fine.
Maybe a label will form for the Forsaken singers.
You say that now! Just wait, just wait. Grass is greener…
There was concern too. Right before:
“Their task was still just beginning; all the people who did respond positively would have to be interviewed to ensure that their desire to reunite with family or friends stemmed from love and concern rather than vengeance.”
Excerpt From: Christie Golden. “Before the Storm (World of Warcraft).”
And:
“Some still believed that death was better than becoming “monsters.”
Excerpt From: Christie Golden. “Before the Storm (World of Warcraft).”
Sylvanas also brings up vetting in her reply. Thats not unreasonable on either side, even if it’s a very controlled group.
Uh, Garithos…
If Humans want to side with Garithos, that is a strange hill to die on.
But read THIS out of him:
Na, Baalsamael called it Checkov’s Bazooka. He’s right. You can’t send the NE’s to a realm of rebirth, with a gateway back to living worlds, and Elune and the Winter Queen talking about guiding them to spring, and then not do it.
Once that bridge is crossed, just for “gameplay” you have to do the Forsaken. (It’ll be totally laugh if newly super power whole Sylvanas does it alone.)