I openly admit that I’m biased as hell when it comes to my favorite race, the worgen. Just wish they did more with the harvest witches. My problem with stormwind is, while their lore might be interesting, in game they are bland and boring as hell. Most people don’t read the novels. People would like the Wrynns more if blizzard dropped the whole high king nonsense and realize the alliance is….well a alliance for a reason
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The original Human City-State was Stratholme, founded by the tribes of Arathor. Stormwind, Lordaeron, Gilneas, Aterac, and Kul Tiras, all traced their descent from it.
You mean Stromgarde yes?
Yeah. Stromgarde.
No, he was “The Lion of Azeroth”. Stormwind is known as “The Kindom of Azeroth”. At least, that was the name in Warcraft 1. He is the Lion of Stormwind, the champion of Stormwind, Knight of Stormwind. Don’t try to challenge my knowledge of the lore with something so completely devoid of knowledge ever again. Save yourself the embarrassment.
Literally none of this is true lol
Literally none of this is true either. He lived in Stormwind because it was the Kingdom of his birth. He was a personal friend of King Wrynn, Knighted as a Knight of Stormwind and even served as Regent Lord of Stormwind after Wrynn’s death.
I am not going to break down the remainder of your post because… Honestly, it is impressive that you can get everything wrong. Literally not a single thing you say in this entire, excessively long post, is correct.
If you want to post in these forums, at least read the wiki. That is a bare minimum requirment.
Here, start with this: Anduin Lothar - Wowpedia - Your wiki guide to the World of Warcraft (fandom.com)
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Beautiful job as always Aki, this is why I enjoy lore discussions with you 
I saw his response and was like….I don’t have the energy to explain to him how he got everything wrong
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Sorry about the above two posts Arthenius. Being a human fan on these forums requires some thick skin because there are some really vocal folks who can’t stand human fans talking about human lore and go out of their way to marginalize and shut down discussions on the subject.
Sometimes you get folks like Akiyass and Micah who claim to be experts in human lore despite actively despising humans and wishing that they would go away forever.
There needs to be a word to describe it. Elfsplaining, since these people usually play elves or are elf-adjacent?
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If I recall, Chronicles actually covers this. Most human kingdoms considered Stormwind’s problems to have nothing to do with them, except for Lordaeron, which wanted to send aid. However, Deathwing was apparently already sowing discord in human lands even at this time, and Stormwind’s alarms got telephoned into “oh those damn southerners are having a peasant rebellion or something, who cares”
I literally have 3 human characters, and that’s only including those I have in retail WoW. I run a Warcraft DnD game and some of the party’s favorite NPCs have been my unique human characters.
I don’t like the bias humans receive in the story. I think “human potential” is an overused trope in both fantasy and sci-fi.
I don’t hate humans. I just don’t want them and their culture bring the dominate one in the Alliance, bleeding into the racial identity of non-humans. The Horde has the same problem with orcs, except at least the Horde has had non-Orc Warcheifs. Yet the Alliance is stuck with a blond mannequin with the mental maturity and world weariness of a middle schooler.
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Seriously, he was the Hero of a realm that was later renamed Stormwind? Only you have the ability to know this absurdly hard-to-find lore. I know what it means to him to be the lion of Azeroth, but that doesn’t change the fact that he is the heir to the throne of all human realms by right of bloodline supremacy.
And that he later becomes the lion of mankind because he is simply the symbol of hope for the entire race. You stick to a historical moment of the character to describe his entire trajectory, you don’t understand that Anduin’s symbolic meaning only grows with Stormwind’s fall. But asking you to understand this would be too much.
Don’t call your inability to draw parallels truths. Just call it obtuseness in seeing obvious associations common in pop art to mixing elements from other works and creating something new.
Don’t play the pigeon dropping the chess pieces and claiming to be victorious, what you did was a typical strategy of bad arguers, you took an element of my speech, attacked it vehemently and then left claiming to be victorious, without responding to 95% of the that I said. You can mislead some people on this forum who are unfamiliar with rhetorical strategies, but if this were a rhetorical dispute you would have been a loser right from the start.
I dare you to debunk everything else I said. It’s no use trying to think you’re too smart using teenage tactics in an argument because it won’t work with me. And besides, it’s no use coming with ad hominem. Everything I said I maintain, you may indeed know a lot about kaldorei lore but your arguments have shown me that you know nothing of human lore.
People like him act identically to this famous American TV guy Ben Shappiro. He takes some elements of other people’s speech and makes them the center of everything, leading the person to be misled into the debate and completely deviate from what really matters in their speech. He manages most of the time to intimidate people with these impolite arguments and sincerely representative of a person with low self-esteem for needing to assert himself so much in a game forum.
What you can see is that behind all this argumentative bellicose the only thing he said was:
1- Anduin Lothar was the lion of Azeroth
2- I disagree that his story recalls Aragorn’s Strider phase.
Apart from these two arguments, nothing else emerges from his speech besides saying that I’m very stupid, that I don’t know anything, that he knows everything and how dare I disagree with his wisdom.
Earlier he made a symbolic association with Stormwind that anyone who has read the books knows to be a factually liar as Stormwind was never described as he said in the lore.
So to me he’s just a very aggressive person, with very simplistic arguments and who probably has a strange need to be a celebrity on a video game forum.
And his being a fan of kaldoreis is basically one of the reasons why he acts so pitifully.
He is so incapable of relating to lore networks that he doesn’t realize that a bad human lore will automatically generate an even worse lore for the kaldorei. Because in case he doesn’t know, the protagonists of the game are humans and orcs. And if the human lore is trash , the kaldorei lore will never be interesting because Blizzard will choose to harm the lore of other races to make the lore of humans more interesting.
But you and I know that individuals like him who are more concerned about their childhood narcissism are not able to see effects that have impacts that reverberate to everything else. He is only able to see his Teldrasil trees, he cannot see the forest that swallows this tree called Stormwind lore.
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Chronicles actually described Stormwind’s pre-First War character as being that of isolationism and a determination to stand alone, or at least that was the reputation that it had among the rest of the human kingdoms.
Akiyass tries to sell Stormwind as the historical center of human identity, history, and civilization, even though the only people who cared about Stormwind has historically been Stormwind (which no longer exists in its pre-First War form) and everyone else treated it as an irrelevant isolationist backwater. Stormwind’s historically defining feature is its irrelevance.
This is something that a lot of people who don’t understand the human narrative seem to persistently get wrong. Humans in Warcraft losing Lordaeron for Stormwind is like losing New York City for Gary, Indiana
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This is a common mistake made by fans of products like Warcraft. Almost everyone clings to one aspect that defines their relationship with the product and forgets about everything else. What this Akyass does is to say that all explanations for the richness of the sea are found in the tidal foams. He totally forgets that the real treasure is hidden in the depths.
This last post by him talking about human protagonism and human potential proves that his resentment, although valid, does not find a palpable explanation of why it happens. And it also proves that he really doesn’t care about the wishes of fans of races other than his favorite.
And that’s the problem with trying to explain the whole using just a part of it. The kaldorei lore is bad these days because its fundamental problem is that it is too good for a supporting race and that it cannot under any circumstances outshine the protagonists’ lore.
So in any event where you have to establish the central role of the protagonist, it’s very easy to choose to simply cannibalize the rest of the characters and races to make the protagonist the center of everything. And that leads to this situation where he feels personally outraged at people talking about recovering Lordaeron or that Stormwind’s lore is bad. From his point of view it is absurd to care about the Stormwind lore who at least has a capital when the lore of his race has been utterly destroyed and they now live like beggars in the streets of the human capital.
And I can’t completely disagree with him. The problem is that he fails to understand that for this to happen Blizzard has to have very few elements in its narrative to push something different.
I will try to better explain my argument using the Horde. What happened in the last few years of Horde lore was that basically almost all of the great orcs characters were killed, destroyed or just become a meme. As a result, Blizzard had few assets to maintain a cohesive narrative. And that led her to use another race with a very well made lore as a desperate measure to try to build some patch that would fix the problem. What were the consequences for this lore race?
But going back in time here, we all know that what was done with Garrosh was a huge mistake, even the devs themselves leave clear clues that turning Garrosh into a crazed villain wasn’t one of the best bets. Simply because after him, and after the relentless onslaught of the draenor warlords, there were simply no more orcs in the lore.
And because of that, Blizzard was forced to use a character that was nothing more than a meme in the classic wow as the main hero of an expansion: Saurfang.
What people don’t understand is that a narrative needs a foundation. And when that foundation is destroyed, the consequences are dire. As was explicit in the case of the Horde. And less explicit is the case of the Alliance.
Because Stormwind’s lore is terrible, and because the human lore is a mere parody of another kingdom, writers are forced to make other races less interesting. For otherwise what would be the point of accepting a 17-year-old High King?
And that’s my problem with this lore, and my solution to it is that I start from a different point than Akyass, although he doesn’t understand, I’m his ally in this discussion. What he doesn’t see is that certain aspects of the Alliance’s lore will never change, humans will be at the center of the faction. And if their lore isn’t basically able to compete with the gnomes’ lore then Blizzard will choose to turn everyone who participates in the faction into complete idiots. Because the only way you can make something dumb less dumb is to make everything else around it dumber.
So going back to the beginning, this syndrome of human potential that affected Blizzard has a simple reason. Kaldoreis, worgen and all the rest cannot shine. Simply because their light would overshadow the human lore, because the human lore since classic has nothing remotely capable of competing with a culture of warrior Amazons who live in a matriarchal society and who were described by Grom as the perfect warriors.
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This is actually a very good point and pretty accurate. If there was a point where Lordaeron was fully reclaimed and rebuilt by the Alliance, what little care there is for Stormwind would probably evaporate. Because speaking symbolically, Lordaeron would better serve as the bastion for Humanity in that scenario.
Even without a Menethil being involved as the King/Queen. I think Turalyon as the King of Lordaeron would be enough to basically put the nail in Stormwind’s coffin.
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You say they don’t care about Forsaken lore, which I don’t necessarily agree with but I believe the introduction of Calia is setting up a change in the Forsaken culture. Under Sylvanas, they were something new - creating a new ‘free-willed’ undead culture. But it also became clear in ‘Before the Storm’ that they basically were forbidden from thinking about the past at all.
But with Calia, they seem to be getting Forsaken to take up their past roots again. Basically, restoring Lordaeron as a nation with her as the legitimate queen - just an undead nation. Which I am 100% fine with since that’s how I’ve always seen the Forsaken (as a balance between their past roots as the people of Lordaeron and their new undead ways).
Plus, the old Alliance of Lordaeron is not the same as the Alliance in World of Warcraft and - before that - Lordaeron and Stormwind were two independent nations which didn’t necessarily get along. So the Alliance has zero claim on Lordaeron except for what the humans in it want. Gilneas is a different story, and I would love for it to be reclaimed for the Alliance. But Lordaeron should be an undead kingdom with ties to its roots.
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Finally, someone else who gets it and said it better than me.
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Fixed that for you.
Seriously, that book absolutely destroyed more than a decade of Forsaken lore, and I don’t think it should be given any kind of pass for that.
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This is true only in before the storm. There is no suggestion that there is a program of thought control in forsaken society from the game itself. Free will is valued trait. You are free to join the forsaken or leave and seek your own fortune when you are raised.
If it exists within forsaken in game lore it exists as cautionary tale for the newly raised or the mentally unstable. Dwelling on the past can and does lead to instability, zombification, or irrational, violent, antisocial behaviour. In order to minimize the risk of this happening you are encouraged to embrace what you have become, not dwell overly on who you were.
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Except he doesn’t. There are several other Kingdoms that had splintered off the original Kingdom of Arathor. They are separate and Sovereign Kingdoms now with their own royal lines.
In the case of Stormwind, that line is Wrynn, who Lothar was friends with and served loyally. He was a Knight of Stormwind. Stormwind was his Kingdom.
Lion of Stormwind. Go read his Wiki, my guy.
… Because it was all wrong. Like, entirely. Like everything you said was made up lol.
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It always amazes me the amount of fan fiction people take as cannon, especially when it’s all so easy to look up and read.
I think defending Calia as an option is very dangerous, and that honestly shocks me coming from a Horde player.
I pretty much only play in the Horde today, and to be quite honest, it would only be in the Alliance’s interest to have Calia in the Horde. And even more interesting is to see that you may not look to the other examples around you to make such a claim and see the consequences for other Horde races and their lore in terms of Alliance figures in the Horde. See the case of Thrall and Baine. How many people today are fans of these characters?
I think you should be more careful with your desires , because those characters who ultimately aim to dilute the culture of the Horde races into something homogenous and pasteurized that is much more reminiscent of the Alliance and its sincerely boring theme are ultimately big disasters , for the faction.
The heart of the forsaken experience is its resurrection with necrotic magic and the afterlife consequences this has. The fact that this magic brings with it cumulative effects that lead to increasingly nefarious thoughts and the constant struggle of a forsaken to maintain sanity is a testament to their conviction. And I think this must be respected. With Calia and the absence of valkyrs would they be infused with light? Nothing would be more disastrous for me than that.
Furthermore, it would only serve to encourage Alliance players to suggest that damned book Before the Storm has its plot used, with Lordaeron becoming a city that accepts the living and the dead. And if that happens which of the architectures and cultural practices do you think would end up prevailing in the end? In the end, Calia is a dangerous option because it would indirectly lead to the Alliance’s goal of reclaiming Lordaeron.
I don’t know about you but I love the forsaken architecture that was introduced in Cataclysm. And I find their behavior in front of their enemies even more interesting. They are the most ruthless race on the battlefield they don’t care about the enemy’s welfare, they are basically what an army of death should be, with the characteristic that in almost every quest they have a unique and hilarious dark humor. It would all be destroyed if we had a light-infused figure like Calia leading them. And being very honest. I’m sick of seeing these Alliance characters in the Horde.
Forsakens don’t need redeemers, they saw it with Sylvanas’ trajectory, they need to have agency in their actions, and they need to go back to being the proactive race they always were, deepening their striking traits, and that being very honest pleased every fan of forsaken in cataclysm quests.
And now we have the means to do this, with the scourge roaming free in Northerend, the forsaken have the means to bring them to their side. Not having an LK any undead in Northerend is a potential ally of the forsaken cause, and ultimately the Scourge share their cursed fate, and were victims of the same person. Not to mention that this would be a great plot to enable san’layns for blood elfs as customization.
And finally, I don’t wish Lordaeron back. I wish an interesting humans lore. These are very different things. And my point has always been that either Blizzard creates an interesting lore for Stormwind and stop imitating Lordaeron using Stormwind because that’s ridiculous at best, or they just drop this ridiculous parody altogether and give Lordaeron to the Alliance.
What blows me away is the fact that you put yourself in the role of a troll’s lackey on a game forum, by the way you don’t have a lot of self respect right? He didn’t answer me and he won’t because he doesn’t have answers. In the meantime, you can join him and go look for believable arguments that dismantle my arguments.
Also because from what I saw here, he remains without arguments and only insists on saying that Anduin was the Lion of Azeroth. Besides, he didn’t say anything else. But you are free to be someone else’s pawn in the game. And I’m free to find this ridiculous to say the least.
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