Oh I got that! I do love my moon magic rocket cat. I do wish they had stuck pouches on it instead of the glaives, though.
You did the quest where it said to save 900 night elf civilians but gave you a 1 minute timer. Mocking you with an impossible task
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See, this right here indicates either an intentional or unintentional miscommunication.
Have I denied that there are those in the Horde who legit supported Sylvanas or was even enthusiastic about it? Not to my recollection. In fact, my lecturing you about the definition of âschismâ shouldâve made that abundantly clear a hundred times over. The worst I did was suggest that even the lion share of the portion still with her only needed her confession to make the switch. My focus has been on bringing attention to various quotes and events to indicate several points.
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That the Horde, mainly the rebellion under Saurfang and the key figures thereof, did not simply turn on Sylvanas when she âhurt their feelingsâ.
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That Teldrassil has long been a sticking point in the schism resulting from Sylvanasâ leadership choices.
I mean, pertaining to that second point, I can think of no part more emblematic of our exchange as of this moment than when I pointed to a Lorâthemar quote which in any sane personâs plain-reading confirms that yes, there has been a schism since Teldrassil. And then you responded saying that Lorâthemar contradicts that by saying Sylvanas has people supporting her (which a schism necessitates by definition).
Your only response to that was to double down nitpick his word choice to somehow indicate that Sylvanas has the support OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE. Nevermind the self-contradictions that your interpretation brings by ignoring the people that DONâT support her (Lorâthemar included). Tellingly, when I reiterated the definition of schism, you did not respond to it after that.
But sure, call my analysis, along with my supporting evidence, quotations, etc, a âfantasy.â Ignore the existence of my evidence, including a direct reference to Teldrassil causing a schism. Insist that Teldrassil needs to be explicitly name dropped in every conversation regarding rebellion or else its just non-existent in motivations (despite it being an obvious drive for Saurfangâs arc and being obviously indirectly referenced by Baine). Continue to whatabout Darkshore. Believe in the worst possible interpretation of all the Horde characters, even suggesting that Baine is somehow cool with genocide despite his obvious displeasure with Sylvanas even prior to his out and out defiance (because thatâs not a farcical belief on its face by itself).
All while you have trouble remembering at what point in the story the player character is given an option to rebel against Sylvanas, pointing out that it was when Baine was arrested, rather than the actual event where its in response to Saurfang being marked for death.
Me: THE PLAYER CHARACTER HAS BEEN GIVEN THE CHOICE OF BEING A LOYALIST OR REBEL IN THE WAR CAMPAIGN BY THE TIME OF BAINEâS RESCUE.
You: I think you should note we already agree on this:
Past You: Only after the Nazjatar trap did a sizable amount of the Horde start to go against her.
This isnât to say that you arenât entirely wrong that there is a need for more storytelling and data on Blizzardâs, but using that absence as evidence is still non-constructive, especially when you snidely dismiss other people trying to use their critical thinking skills to raise interpretations of the data available to us rather than pedantically request everything be spelled out.
Look, since youâre a fan of explicit evidence, give me explicit evidence that Baine was totes on board with Teldrassil burning. Give me explicit evidence that he supports genocide wholeheartedly. None of this inference business, none of this critical thinking stuff, just give me some explicit evidence that Baine willingly, without duress, supports genocide.
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Baine was not on board with Teldrassil - hell, Sylvanas and Saurfang even kept him completely out of the loop on the War of the Thorns. He probably didnât even know about it until well after the fact, given it was a surprise attack that Sylvanas and Saurfang kept hidden from even the Horde until they Saurfangâs announcement before Morâshan Rampart.
And yet Baine continued to support Sylvanas after Teldrassil. Baine lead Sylvanasâ troops at the Battle for Lordaeron. And we know the exact duress that Baine was under to be in that situation.
- Baine Bloodhoof: You abandoned Saurfang to die out there!
Sylvanas Windrunner: It is the death he wanted. If that troubles you, youâre free to join him. Or you can tend to the living. The choice is yours.
Baine Bloodhoof: For the Horde.
Where Saurfang chose to try to let the Alliance stop Sylvanas and end the war at the Battle for Lordaeron, Baine took no such action, did not stand against Sylvanas in even a cloaked way at Lordaeron like Saurfang did. Because Baine thought that he was doing the best thing he could for the Horde in continuing to support Sylvanas even after Teldrassil.
But you know all this, and intentionally spend your time being pedantic for the sake of being pedantic in your âlecturesâ of a schism without contributing anything constructive to the discussion (and intentionally misrepresent my views while youâre at it to argue with a strawman instead of with me) to distract from the only point that actually matters in regards to the title and topic of this thread:
This section of the Horde has not been addressed by the Horde in its discussions of peace with the Alliance. And Baine and Lorâthemar and everyone else who were not enthusiastic about the burning of Teldrassil or the attempted holding of Darkshore after but still supported Sylvanas for far too long after the burning of Teldrassil have still not made any attempt to even bring up Teldrassil or Darkshore in their discussions of peace with the Alliance.
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I mean Iâm mad that Teldrassil is part of this conversation at all because players had no say in it, but good lord does brennadam take the cake. the horde quest team didnât even get a say in that one.
Alliance quest team: Time to add to the Hordeâs sins Ex-Dee
Hold the phone and also the mayo. Youâre saying that as if Baine had ANY CLUE what Saurfang was doing and then specifically chose not to help him.
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I know Iâve argued this position to you a couple of times before, but I have to admit Iâm a little bummed out to see youâve picked it up. I was actually a little envious that you were able to hold your conscientious objector stance before. 
Oh nice, Iâll definitely be getting that one for my Night Elf!
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You took it as mockery. I took it as a reminder that not all battles can be won, but tried as hard as I could anyway.
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Didnât even give us a damn cinematic of the aftermath
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No. Iâm saying Baine didnât choose or come up with any way to stand against Sylvanas at the Battle for Lordaeron on his own, unlike Saurfang.
That Saurfang kept his turning on Sylvanas a secret (including to Baine) didnât help anyone, but he at least tried, even if not in the most well thought out manner. Baine didnât even try.
Thatâs a different conversation. Rothiron is right, that any specific character can choose not to do the Darkshore Warfront, or even just roleplay that they werenât involved, and as far as their personal stories go that is the truth for themselves.
However, that character not being involved does not make it so the Horde at large wasnât involved, nor prevents anything that happened at Darkshore from having had happened. That is to say, a character can personally not have been involved in going to Darkshore raising the Undead Night Elves, for example, and so have a clean conscious for that. But that doesnât prevent the Undead Night Elves from being risen by someone else in the Horde as far as the story is concerned - especially if you can still get the quest in 8.3 to see Voss bring the Undead Night Elves to Calia even if you havenât done the Horde side Darkshore Warfront introductory questing.
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Itâs a fighting cat.
Just wanna hit some of these points. Tyrande doesnt deserve justice, night elves do. Anduin is wrong for allowing the horde, to continue to exist as a seperate entity because time and time again they have been shown to follow orders when committing horrible offenses and then later, after it starts to negative affect them⌠have a rebellion.
The only way to make this right is to dissolve the issue⌠period. Tyrande shouldnt be crazy for wanting revenge after they burned her flipping home down after the horde constantly invade and destroy night elf territory⌠Shandris is poorly written atm because she has always been Tyrandes yes man, and she is in love with Jarod, and she has never been the peaceful person, lore wise. So yea⌠youâre wrong.
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I am not sure I would call Shandris âpeacefulâ, really. She is just responding to the realities of the situation like a seasoned military officer should. She is prioritizing keeping their people housed, clothed, and fed over vengeance⌠but it is not like she has forgotten what occurred. She just wants to get her people off the streets of Stormwind and back home to Kalimdor and to not totally alienate their only allies by screaming at them.
Tyrande is prioritizing vengeance over all else, and is endangering her people in the process. She is very much devolving into a âCaptain Ahab and the White Whaleâ type of situation.
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Tyrande is the avatar of Eluneâs wrath or something, right?
Might want to take that into account when discussing her, because I think itâs valid to note that this Tyrande is not fully herself. I pose a question:
If Tyrande did not become The Night Warrior, would she be seething with rage and swear vengeance as much?
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Watching the tree burn broke my heart. I know horde donât really care about the ruins of lorderan but we alliance care about the tree. Itâs an important tree and it hurts to see it gone
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Letâs see:
Right
Wrong
Right
Right
Wrong
Wanting Sylvanas and her loyalistsâ heads on spits for what they did is entirely justified and is frankly the only sensible way to resolve this. Every Horde? Even every Forsaken? Not so much.
Even then, it seems the typical Horde attitude isnât any better. Baine is Alliance because heâd maintain good relationships with the Alliance. Calia can never be Horde because sheâs Alliance right now and we all know no Forsaken was EVER alliance before (/s), and the Forsaken canât be allowed to become anything less psychopathic murder-y because that would make them the same as Humans.
Nobodyâs happy about the taste of the pills they have to swallow this expansion. Thatâs frankly how it should be.
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i think thay you understimate the value that lordaeron had for some people, bear in mind that many people started playing as a forsaken and now all those zones are basically gone, brill was literally destroyed off-camera.
Personally? while i donât really cared about the tree because i use ironforge more often what has make me so mad was that i was forced to take part of the tragedy and seeing a devastating defeat first hand, like that quest where you have to try to save and fail as many as possible.
and like⌠there is nothing you can do about it, to either save the tree or the lives. or even avenge them. i get that blizzard want us to feel emotion, but i think that they went too far.
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âMay their defeat taste of ashes and tears.â - Shandris Feathermoon
Speaking about the Horde
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It is hard to say, Tyrande I think is also suffering from a tremendous amount of what amounts to survivors guilt because she promised those in Teldrassil the Horde would never burn the tree down⌠then left them to subsequently burn.
âWe hear that the Horde has destroyed the wisps, that the Sentinels are all dead, and that the Horde approaches with arcane fire to burn the World Tree.â
âNone of those are true,â Tyrande said
Followed up by
âThe tree is burning,â he said. His voice was hard and laced with pain.
âYou mean Darnassus?â Tyrande asked, her words catching in her throat.
âThe tree,â Genn repeated. âIâm sorry, High Priestess. The Horde has burned the World Tree.â His eyes, bloodshot from the smoke, narrowed.
âThey will pay for this. I swear to youâthey will pay!â
Tyrande closed her eyes. âI said the tree would not be⌠â Her voice broke.
It is likely even if the night warrior was not augmenting her anger to 110% she still would be single minded her her desire to avenge the fallen.
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I valued Undercity. It was the only Horde capital that didnât make my eyes hurt.
Still unfathomable why theyâd get rid of these two instead of the Exodar and Silvermoon.
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