Wowpedia has a copy of the WC3 manual word for word on it. You can even do a google search for a pdf copy since you don’t trust wowpedia. The in-game war of the spider book is in game. You can find it in Stormwind Keep, Scholomance, Scarlet Halls and the ‘living’ side of Stratholme.
You have access to those sources. Acting like you don’t when you do is arguing in bad faith.
EDIT:
Side note. Just reading through the WC3 manual, it is interesting to see what minor or major details got changed over the years. From Jaina becoming Daelins only daughter as Metzen didn’t like the idea of Daelin being an adulterer (WC3 manual lists Jaina as the youngest of his daughters) to Ner’zhul originally being tricked by his lust of power into serving Kil’jaeden. Which was then changed to KJ deceiving the shaman by posing as his dead mate.
I was reading through the WC1 and WC2 manuals a few weeks back and it was interesting to see when certain characters were first name dropped or even described. Some I expected to be a bit later. The main one being Agewynn. She is described as a ‘wanderer’ in WC1 warning the people of Stormwind of her son Medivh. Whom has gone crazy due to demonic magic. In WC2, she is the PoV character for the summary of the events of WC1 and setting up the plot for WC2. Even her original relationship with Nielas Aran was first mentioned in WC2 and not The Last Guardian (as I originally believed). That being Agewynn having a one night stand with him on purpose. Then dumping a baby at his doorstep 9 months later. Not sure how I still feel about the chronicles vol 1 retcon. Making them enemies into lovers. Part of me likes the original and part of me likes the retcon. Agewynn being 1000+ years old before conceiving Medivh was also present in WC2 along with her pride and mistrust of the Kirin Tor to find a worthy successor to the position of Guardian of Trisfal.
I wonder if the ‘remote human settlement on the fringe of the vast Dragonblight’ the WC3 manual lists as Ner’zhuls initial testing grounds for the plague became Wintergarde in Wrath. If that is the case, I wonder why we don’t see the ruins of that settlement during the Northrend missions during WC3. In both RoC and TFT. I wonder if Blizzard didn’t chicken out on the whole ‘remake WC3, maps and all’ we might’ve seen it on one of the maps. Maybe as a potential expansion location. That way the area of Wintergarde occupied by the 7th Legion in Wrath was actually a base built by Arthas and his men while looking for Mal’ganis and Frostmourne. That also survived Arthas’ betrayal. While the lower part, which included the very obvious Mausoleum was part of the original Wintergarde settlement that was destroyed by Ner’zhul and the plague. Adding to this, Wintergarde mine was the first time Arthas encountered Saronite. Which he would later use throughout his time as The Lich King.
Getting excited is perfectly fine and I’m sorry that you felt attacked. But remember tone doesn’t convey well over text, and you yourself somewhat came off as insulting as well, in regards to the wowpedia community.
I want to make it clear, I don’t see you in negative light. From the posts I’ve personally read and the times I’ve engaged with you on this site, I’ve always felt you’ve tried your best to be respectful.
Countless articles have a speculation section because it’s up in the air and there’s no confirmation that the information is true or not, over your statement that they treat them all as facts. You called sourced information flimsy wowpedia evidence, as if editors created fake sources to make up the evidence on the ICC page, and that the admins looked the other way.
Regardless of your intention, that came off as insulting as if the editors were all a bunch of fakes. It felt out of character, so I figure I was reading it in a wrong tone, as like I said before tone doesn’t convey well over text. However I found it very jarring that you said that someone was coming off as an elitist because it created this impression in my mind that you can give it out but can’t take it.
I don’t mean any offense and I’m sorry if you feel any, but this was something I just had to get off my chest. Like I said, I don’t view you in a negative light.
Also just be aware that if you dismiss evidence from somewhere because you dislike where it came from or don’t look yourself to see if your theory can be proven, enhanced, or disproven from that source, people can think that you are arguing in bad faith. And I don’t want to see that happen to anyone.
The amount of time you post is up to you, but don’t let this drive you away. Your excitement is perfectly fine, refreshing with how clinical people have been, and plenty of people have posted theories that others can either enhanced or disprove with evidence.
You just have to work on responding better when people share evidence that goes against your theory. Instead of dismissing it out of hand or going on a lowkey attack, look at the evidence, and go from there. If you can see its properly sourced, then think if your theory could still work. If not, thank them for letting you know. If your theory could still work with the evidence, thank them, and explain how you think your theory could work with it.
If the evidence comes from speculation and theories, then point that out, and how your theory is equally valid as the speculation.
If they provide no evidence and just say your wrong or insult you take a breath and walk away for a bit. That way if you choose to respond to them, you can ensure that you do so with a more clear head and avoid the trap of falling into a forum argument. Ask how you are wrong, point out how you feel insulted and that wont help you learn, try to keep a calm head and depending on how they respond to your calmness will either allow them to step back and let the potential argument become a conversation or double down and show they are the ones in bad faith.
This is what I tend to do. Even I was unsure if the Dreadlords had any involvement in the construction of ICC. So I stopped mid post to check. Wowpedia said it, I looked at the sources and checked them. However I also remembered how the dome protecting the Frozen Throne was destroyed in the cinematic after the final undead mission in TFT. Which is why I believed and still do believe that the saronite ICC was a recent thing (as in Arthas had the scourge build it).
This is why it is important to reference sources and provide them if asked. If I get told to look something up myself with no frame of reference as to what and where, I make the assumption that the person made it up. Burden of proof and all that.
Using the names, I guessed Uldaz would be near Dazaralor or in Zuldazar. But my name based theory about Uldorus being near Antorus on Argus was wrong.
Although… maybe Antorus was designed and named after Uldorus? Maybe “Uld” is a Titanic-based prefix for “Old”, while “Ant” is a titanic prefix for “new” or “after.” Like Uldorus is “old orus” and Antorus was “new orus.”
People need to get a grip sometimes. I try to keep my theories separate from what is actually there in the lore. If I am going off on a guess or a theory, I make that clear. I do not pretend it is canon. I noticed alot of people like to treat their headcanon theories as gospel, and they expect everyone to conform to their head canon. They take being proven wrong as an attack. Instead of looking at their own statements and seeing where they were wrong.
I remember when people were debating about what took out the Arbiter, I was a proponent of the theory that it was the Dreadlords pumping Argus with corruption and flinging him to the Arbiter. Alot of people said: “impossible! Titans go to their own afterlife realm” and I would say : “maybe the Dreadlords are using magic to send him to the Arbiter?”
I would say it was a theory - I would not argue it is a fact. Because it was unknown. The people arguing against me were just telling me the canon we knew at the time. And yet, I held my position that Argus may have been the thing that took out the Arbiter. And I ended up being right.
Keep your theories in the context of theories, and do not argue them as facts.
I was gonna just leave it alone but now I am really upset and I feel like I need to voice my feelings on this matter.
Who cares if other people treat their headcanons as facts. They are not hurting anyone with that. You know what you know to be true. The only thing the risks happening is the person hurts their own feelings by being wrong. They are taking their own risks. But you on the other hand are squashing someone else’s creativity and excitement for what? To feel elite? That’s elitist.
Let people speculate, let people be wrong. There’s nothing wrong in being wrong, and if your pride can’t handle that. That’s on you.
You are the ones killing this lore forum. You are making it so stuffy and elitist no one wants to post here in fear of being wrong and being ridiculed.
No, that’s just you. You’re the only one here who takes disagreement as a personal attack, yet you also get mad at people for agreeing with you too often.
I am not afraid to be wrong, I don’t get upset when proved wrong, that’s part of the course. I expect that, I respect that.
What does upset me is when people assume my feelings are fragile, and that I am upset when I am not. it does upset me when people project that I am upset, and react to me being upset, where there is absolutely no reason to warrant that kind of an outburst. It’s a self inflicted wound. One I’m not going to indulge.
One of the things that I have used is mirroring. I reply to people the same way they reply to me and it’s not a shock that people then claim I am being too rude, when I am just projecting their own tone back to them. Everyone in this forum needs a tone check from time to time.
Blizzard wisely set up a section to discuss the actual lore, and a separate section for RP and Fanfiction = The World’s End Tavern.
There is a place for RP fan fiction head canon discussions, if you want them. The people in the Story Forum are trying to discuss the story.
No. Again, you slap on sinister motivations. Pointing out the facts and canon is not elitist in a discussion about the lore.
No one is stopping anyone from being wrong. They are just pointing out that they are wrong.
If someone tries to have a discussion about their headcanon, which may consist of :
“Jaina is actually in charge of the Night Elves and the Forsaken. The Darkshore Warfront was just a Wargame to test their strength and frighten the nonbelievers. All hail feminist icon God Queen Jaina!”
Having a discussion on that premise will likely lead to corrections, even if corrections offend you. It would not be elitist to point out fan fiction is not the actual lore.
The only issue with people treating headcanon as facts is when they argue their headcanons as fact just because they say so. And refuse to budge, like I remember this person arguing that the Nightborne personally killed night citizens during the War of Thorns and she planted her flag more firmly as people provided evidence against her headcanon. She kept bringing it up to the point that people thought she was trolling at best and toxic at worst.
Now in regards to people being “elitist” I think that depends on how they respond. If they are rational, explain the actual lore with evidence, and respectful, then they are not elitis. However if they are condensing, insult and criticize you for not knowibg the lore then yeah I can see them being elitist jerks.
Its one thing to be wrong, its another thing to double down on it and promote it as fact. Which I’ve seen before, like the poster who may or nay not have been a troll.
I can understand that. Though I hope you understand that I was stressing that I didnt have an issue with you because tone doesnt well over text and I didnt want you to think I was assuming your feelings.
Like I’ve said before tone doesnt convey well over text. Thus you are taking the risk of assumption.
This.
blink No one said that though.
Theres a situation… I’m confused, so confused right now.
