First 4 bosses are almost all single target. Broodtwister is an AOE/Cleave, Princess is pure ST, Court is a 2-target cleave. I’m not sure about other tanks, but I know that at least Brewmaster doesn’t really have an AOE/Cleave/ST build – its all the same – but Paladins can adjust between fights to maximize their DPS.
And anectdotally, our prot paladin in my guild is usually above me in DPS but its fairly close (between 26 dps difference at the lowest, and 150k at the highest), and we both parse around 98/99 for all fights.
If this wasn’t also a season where interrupts were extremely important, I’d agree completely. But when a single bolt cast going off means a dead DPS I don’t think if it would be the case – At worst, Warrior would take over with Prot Paladin being just behind them in terms of popularity. It would be hard to make accurate predictions if Prot Paladin dps was toned down by 10-20%
1 Like
Are you sure it doesn’t scale? I haven’t tested it, but even if it doesn’t it would apply the dot for much higher uptime. Also, yes we would be using AS more even at the cost of GCDs because Judgement and BH have CDs of their own. There are lots of moments where I’m using Conc because I’m waiting for builder CDs. This argument that AS is a wasted GCD is something that’s been going on for a while and quite frankly wrong.
Shields interrupting a cast is essentially mitigating 5+ mil damage.
If we weren’t bottom tier next to BM before the damage buffs I would agree with you. We had all the same utilities then vs now and we only moved places after the damage buffs came.
This doesn’t happen until higher than +15 keys.
1 Like
Don’t nerf anyone, bring dps for all tanks up! Paladin is fun as hell cause it just goes brrrrttttt all the damn time.
2 Likes
While 0 tanks are more viable in battlegrounds to flag/orb/crystal carry than most healers and some dps, tuning up underperforming tanks in M+ would help 2 game modes instead of just harming M+ completion liklihood with a Prot Paladin nerf.
Pvp and M+ tuning considerations can be thought about and tuned separately, but we have an opportunity to address many tank inadequacies in both game modes with appropriate buffs for the underperforming Tanks for M+, which would leave Prot Paladin where it is as the worst spec in pvp, and pvp specific modifiers could be used to bring protection paladin up after that.
I also haven’t tested as I don’t think I am wrong. According to the description’s wording, WoG increases AS’s dmg, not AS’s efficiency, and dot, that scales solely on attack power, comes from talent that procs on AS hits, unrelated to AS’s dmg.
Seems like it’s worth testing to be honest.
I want you to take a look at these logs. This honestly not attempting to throw shade whatsoever. These were both +12 DB when we were almost the same ilvl.
You used Moment of Glory and had the talent point in Eye of Tyr. Even without the 20% damage gains from Moment it’s my top damage, but your 2nd. I actually find it very peculiar that Judgement of all things is your top instead of SoTR. You should be using it much more.
This is the #3 damage parse log for +12 DB.
1 Like
I have one of each tank, and the difference between pally and every other tank is significant.
Tbh, I forgot to changed EoT back to Glory when I ran that key. But this is unrelated to our topic 
It’s just pointing out the importance of AS because you stated that it’s essentially a wasted GCD. Going back on topic though, I think doubling Eye and AD has it’s uses in pugs.
Then you would need to roll a def cd in place of Glory, it’s just a trade of a minor def cd for another minor def cd. I don’t see anything wrong with it.
It absolutely happens in keys lower than +15 when there’s overlap, such as Grim Batol with Molten Wake + Shadow flame Bolt, Stonevault with Arcing Void + Ground Pound, etc.
Also, the 11.0.5 changes came out when the highest keys were, what, +15? The meta hadn’t really solidified as people weren’t in BIS gear yet. It’s very likely that paladin would have shot up given that the utility they have is extremely important for DPS survival, especially squishy classes like Enh Shaman.
But again, that’s speculation and nobody can say for certain. The only thing we can say is that the 11.0.5 changed the entire trajectory of TWW s1, for better or worse.
I don’t see how you are comparing a CD that creates a barrier based on damage dealt over time vs a flat 25%. The Barrier created is going to trickle in and not really do much. That’s why I said it’s taken over Eye for the 20% damage gain instead of the barrier generation.
Yes, an overlap. Not a single bolt.
Well, both are minor defensive cds, they both have up and down. Debating which one is better is like orange vs apple. They are optional def cds, not mandatory def cds. There is no point to dive into it, tbh.
The barrier generation is miniscule and it’s not comparable to an actual defensive button. Eye is 25% from start to finish. One is an actual defensive and the other is an offensive CD.
I am not diving into this endless debate of glory vs Eye, sorry.
That’s fine you don’t have to, but this all started because you were questioning the situational use of Eye+AD and brought up how AS is essentially wasted GCDs.
I talked about that because as Eye is an optional def cd, that means you aren’t required to have it to survive even the top keys. It’s good to have and overlap it but it’s not mandatory.
I never said it was mandatory. I said it’s good to have in pugs and the reasoning that top teams don’t take it is because they are full comms with practiced routes to fill defensive gaps and most importantly the need for damage gains.
Yes, Eye and Moment are optional. That’s not disputed.
This doesn’t disapprove my original statement that you don’t need to overlap def cds to survive tank burster.
… You do in situations when you are dry on Holy Power and can’t pre-WoG+AS. There’s a lot that happens in pugs where you need to use Holy Power to cover healing gaps or mistakes made by other players. There’s many times where you need to pop a defensive at a non-opportune time because of how the group is running making your defensive rotation off track. You can’t rely on external defensives in pugs.