Well, sure, but these are all just how the mechanic objectively functions.
I’m talking about these extra guidelines that people like the OP are referencing. For example, if a 440 lfr item drops, and I have a 483 equipped, the OP seems to be saying that the Need Roll is not to be used here.
As far as I can tell, this is just completely made up by OP and other players? Like completely made up?
As far as I know, I can roll Need on a 440 ilvl chest for my offspec I never play even if I have a 480 chest for that off spec. My understanding is that the Need roll is fully functional there, and that if I were reported for using it, the report would be trashed. Is this not correct?
I want to know why people like the OP are inventing what the “proper” use of Need Rolls are in their imagination, then calling the feature broken for not aligning with their imagination.
There is nothing about the feature that imposes any such restriction. It’s an invention completely from their imagination. I can decide that the proper way to use a hearthstone is to do a 360° before using it, but this is not reflected in the mechanic of the game, it’s something I made up, I shouldn’t expect people to comply.
Entitlement, but that’s a 2 way street. It’s about the perceived value of the piece. To someone who is progressing, the power of an item will be more important. Where for someone like me I drastically value appearances over power (not that I don’t still value personal progression). I could call them entitled for saying I shouldn’t get a piece even when I helped down the boss and likely did a significant amount of the work compared to progressing players. They could call me entitled for already be gearing and going into lower content for pieces that have no functional use for me, just a cosmetic one which they may not value as much.
Imo, anyone should be entitled to a chance at loot with the only restriction being spec loot tables. Yes, it would allow people to loot exact things they already have. It would allow me to get LFR loot more easily. But my angle on it is that the rewards eligibility should not be based off gear you’ve obtained, but just based off content completion. The combination of Appearance, DE value, and even vendor value, are equal to progression needs outside of a static team based setting.
Everyone who takes part in the content that can can use the item, upgrade or not, should have an equal chance to get it.
This implies some sort of moralistic “greater good”, which in fact doesn’t exist.
For player A, that needs the upgrade, obviously upgrade is most important.
For player B, that needs the transmog, then for THEM the transmog is most important.
Why does player B have to care AT ALL what player A’s needs are? They both did their part on the fight. So because player B is more well geared he should just “raise the floor” on someone he literally doesn’t know and might literally never play with again, all for the “greater good”? That’s ridiculous.
Let’s even include player C, who just wants to sell the item for gold. Why does he matter least? He needs neither transmog nor upgrade, yet still did his part on the fight. Why does he care about the needs of player A OR B?
This is the problem. Folks keep trying to argue some sort of altruistic system, beyond the rule structure in place, but why should the players do this? Sure, it’s an MMO, but at the end of the day, every player is playing this game for their benefit. I’m not running around making sure all of the other players I see are getting better on a regular basis. I mean, I could, just like I COULD pass on loot (which I do from time to time). But I shouldn’t HAVE to. It’s my monthly fee, it’s my time spent, it’s my participation, that’s earned me the right to roll for the loot, for whatever reason I deem benefits me most.
To be honest if a person has a higher level item of the same thing then LfR they shouldn’t get the need option if there are others that actually need the gear to use .
I do think what Blizz should do is if a person gets an item from a raid say normal or higher they should also get the appearances of the lower raids to .
Say you run normal and get chest piece . Well you woulkd also get the LfR appearance also . Heroic wouild give the Normal and LfR looks also and Mythic would give heroic, normal and lfr appearances also .
Where did I say the gear needed removed? People go there for transmog or trinkets more often than trying to actually use it as upgrades for tier or the like. Because it’s easier to get that gear outside of LFR.
LFR is the only form of raiding worth keeping, because you can solo queue for it. It has very high participation metrics, so no need to kill content that so many people are doing.
It is organized raiding that I think should be allowed to let die, rather than kill the overall game just to artificially preserve organized raiding traditions.
If they are obsessed with upgrades and can’t chill out, to the point thst they’re inspecting people and making rage threads, no. They shouldn’t be using LFR to gear like that. Because in two weeks they can have at least a two set bonus, if not a four set bonus and their tier upgraded to 463 just by doing weekly quests.
Their fault for doing it the hard way if they’re going to get upset over it.
Now let’s see what those participation metrics are without players who are otherwise doing higher difficulties showing up for OP trinkets, or tier sets early on in the season.
Let them keep the mog as a re-color of normal, but do WoD style Tier/trinkets.
Not necessarily. It certainly could have that argument and come to the same conclusion, but we can even ignore that for now
What’s most important to an individual is largely irrelevant. There are two possible things that matter:
What you can roll on
What is determined, by the game makers, to be the most important
We already know #1 and that’s what we see in practice. Some folks (myself included) argue that #2 should also be considered, which we can really only glean from logical interpretation. This is also what we’re mainly addressing, since nobody’s really arguing about what you can roll on (i.e. when you can press the button), but what you should or should not roll on.
So this is less about “the greater good” (though they do arguably coincide) and “following the rules as designed by the game maker”. Again, some argue that what is allowed is what was intended. Others argue that, for a variety of reasons, just because something is allowed doesn’t mean it was intended in every instance.
For example, it’s virtually impossible to determine if something is or is not an upgrade for every piece of loot available without running expensive simulations under a variety of circumstances. It’s reasonable to consider that the Need roll is more permissive to allow people to make their own conclusions and determine if the item would or wouldn’t be an upgrade for them. When I say upgrade here I mean a direct “player power” upgrade – an increase in stats, or something that would increase their dps, hps, survivability, etc.
I completely understand the argument that “I participated in the kill, I should get a shot at loot”, but that’s not always the case even today. If I’m on my pally and all cloth drops, I don’t get the same shot at the loot as a mage. Nobody seems to be arguing that point – but why not? As a paladin, I can’t roll need on an agi polearm I may want for transmog. Well, why not?
And most people in the camp you’re in (that what you can do is always allowed) probably don’t care enough to argue that loot should simply be “Pass/Roll” on everything – a true “I participated in the kill, I get an equal shot”. I can’t say I’d blame anyone for that viewpoint, as it’s basically just shouting into the void.
Because Blizzard seemingly designed the rolls to work a certain way:
Need is for upgrades to player power (a definitely vague term)
Transmog is for transmog
Greed is for selling/DE
Which we can logically derive from what is and isn’t allowed. It’s up to each individual to police themselves for the “greater good”, as you say, if they so choose.
That Blizzard doesn’t (or can’t) enforce that doesn’t necessarily make it acceptable to the group at large to take advantage and just roll Need all the time. But then again, since it’s not enforced, the worst you’re going to get is a forum post or someone thinking you’re a jerk. If you’re not concerned about the greater good, then it probably wouldn’t be bothersome to think others think you’re a jerk.
Overall, it largely doesn’t matter because Blizzard simply doesn’t care, or at the least has so far refused to even weigh in on the matter because they lack either the knowledge of the issue or the time to bother clarifying. Then again, I could probably say that about any number of issues they don’t bother doing anything about.
I agree that there are better methods of getting gear, but players should be allowed to gear up through LFR if they don’t want to do open world content or M+.
No, it’s the devs fault for re-implementing Group Loot, which is less efficient for unorganized raiding.
BfA was awesome because we had more loot dropping from each boss, in addition to bonus rolls and personal loot. You could easily walk out of a full clear of LFR with multiple pieces per week. No in DF, you feel lucky for getting a single piece.
DF devs clearly want raid gearing to be inefficient.
I don’t think Blizzard wants to keep people doing LFR who substantially outgear it. If anything, having a lot of overgeared folks can detract from the experience of a group learning the fight. (Although, granted, learning a fight in LFR is far from the best experience.)
Nor do I think that they want to have players burning themselves out on LFR just for a low chance at completing tmog sets.
Completionist farmers (like me) are gonna farm. In other words, there are lots of mounts and achievements we can farm weekly for years to come. I don’t mind this. It’s an enjoyable, relaxing pastime where we can zone-out, listen to audiobooks/podcasts, or whatever. The game is not short on content for completionists.
Alternate versions of tmog sets aren’t actually that time-intensive to farm on old content except for a few very painful exceptions.
For example, the cuffs of the mages’ normal tier set from Tomb of Sargeras are only available as a rare drop off of Malificus, which is a rare world boss (seldom seen). It’s RNG on top of RNG. There is a ridiculously low likelihood of completing this tmog set.
By all rights, this should have been earned years ago, during Legion, by anyone doing the content at level, let alone heroic and mythic difficulties.
So, yes, I would argue that anyone doing a certain difficulty of content should be entitled to tmogs of all lower difficulties. It would just be huge quality-of-life improvement for tmog farmers. (And trust me, there are still plenty of things to farm out there.)
So, why hasn’t Blizzard done it?
It’s probably just one of those things that they haven’t gotten around to yet. It’s my hope that this is something on the radar (especially if we make some noise about it) for the future.
if it’s in a raid, the adventure guide I think it’s called (SHIFT+J) will show you the loot drops for each boss, and whether it will drop based on spec as need.
I agree with you here. A simple inspection of players in LFR will show a majority of people with Normal, Heroic, or Mythic-level gear.
But the frustrating thing is they all still roll Need on everything the game possibly lets them, even just random pieces that aren’t even trinkets or tier pieces.
WoD nearly killed this game by making LFR so pointless. There’s a reason devs changed their tune for Legion.