NEED system in LFR is Flawed

So you’re defining “use” as any particular “use”, and not as “upgrade”. That’s why people are complaining.

It’s obvious people have some use for it, otherwise, who would need just to take up space in their bags? It’s that the “use” goes against the logical interpretations we can make from how the loot rules are designed.

Some people say that “because it’s allowed, it’s ok”, others say that the “original intentions of the rule creators should be taken into account”.

It’s a type of argument that’s as old as… well, at least America, and we talk about how laws should be interpreted. That it continually comes up, absent any input from the creators, isn’t all that surprising.

I don’t think anyone’s arguing for otherwise – like lowest roll wins or second highest wins.

So should the system persist in allowing these people to roll need on these items based on the assertion that the “System works fine”?

except different people have different “logical interpretation” which usually align with how they want the system to work.

You can’t have a case where a statement can be both true and false.

We can logically show that Upgrade > Transmog > Greed based on inferences.

Unless you have a way to disprove it, which I haven’t seen yet.

Then please explain how we can reach this conclusion.

People complain about overgeared people rolling for loot in LFR, but no one ever complains about the overgeared players queuing up for LFR and carrying the undergeared people.

So, it is OK for them to participate in LFR, but they just shouldn’t get anything for it?

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I just did… in the linked post.

We can show that “If Need was meant for transmog, then I should be able to roll on anything I can transmog that I don’t already own” is false.

Additionally (not in the post), we can show “If Need was meant for upgrades, then I should be able to roll on anything that is a statistical upgrade” is true – or at least, we can’t yet show it not to be false.

If you have counter examples or other, competing statements, then I’m definitely all ears. I’m not just trying to pull stuff out of thin air here and genuinely want a more objective discussion, as all the accusations, insults, etc. don’t really get us anywhere.

Nobody forces them to participate, and why would people complain about the combat portion by having higher geared people there?

To be honest, if Blizzard returned the currency system from Cata complete with a vendor the current loot system would feel better.

The correct balance between RNG and earned currency has always been the best route.

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I NEED my transmog, that’s the only reason I’m in LFR. World content drops equivalent gear if you just care about item level.

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All dungeons/raid levels:
Remove need/greed.
Currency tokens replace gear (and specials)
Everyone gets one roll total per run.
Tokens divvied out per Blizzard as to number.
Account bound token.
Covers alts/altspecs/transmog/special items etc.

Won’t happen due to P2Carry market is profitable for Blizz.

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I’m sorry, I didn’t recognize that as a link. As to the argument, if A->B then !B->!A is logical, however this is not the situation you’ve described. Decisions may get axed because of a single objection, but they don’t get approved because of a single supporting idea. To use an extreme example: Blizzard does not like RMT. They could eliminate RMT by getting rid of grouping and making everything random queues. The fact they did not do this does not indicate they approve of RMT. All your example proves is that transmogs are not the most important factor in their decision making, it doesn’t show that they consider upgrades to be strictly more important than transmogs.
To put it another way:
“If Blizzard intended need rolls to be used for gaining player power, then a player should be able to roll need on any item they can benefit from.” and yet plenty of trinkets can only be rolled on by a designated specs or role.

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Grocery list shopping is such a boring system. Getting the same power at the same time as everyone else of my spec based on what some wowhead guide writer says sounds absolutely dreadful.

I’ll all for a currency as a form of bad luck protection to be able to get an item that just won’t drop for you after so many weeks. But not as the sole method for gearing up.

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ok so you think its fair that only someone that an item is an item level increase for should be able to need roll on the item, well im sorry thats not how it works. Thats basically saying im sorry player b, i know you attended the instance and participated in the content but you get no chance at anything because we need to pander to someone else who think you dont deserve to have any reward for your efforts.
That is so entitled.
How about people stop crying over lfr loot like you wont replace it in a week anyway and just run some content, heck run mythic 2’s you will out gear lfr gear in a few hours. Its repeatable and your only rolling against 4 other people plus its personal loot which should make you happy.

Can someone please show me the list of rules for using the Need Roll?

Surely the people posting these threads aren’t just making up how the Need Roll is supposed to be used?

For example, the OP mentioned ilvl. Where can I find more information about this? As far as I can tell, the Need Roll doesn’t have anything to do with ilvl at all. Is the OP just making up the association, or what?

As of 9-29-22, for DF S1, [Edited: found more]

Hey folks, going to respond to add some clarity that might alleviate some concerns, or at the very least better communicate how things will be.

As the title says, these would be for Dragonflight Season 1 - which means the Group Loot being always on is not just for beta. That said, we’ve improved Group Loot a lot from when it was last shown in 2016, and are continuing to work to remove other edge cases. For example:

  • In the past, Need/Greed only knew if something was equippable or the right armor type, not if it was meant for your spec or not. This is now changed.

  • First off, you can never Need for anything your class cannot wear. No warriors sniping cloth robes with a need roll and giving it away or trolling.

  • We also have mainspec and offspec functionality built-in, which changes based on the current loot spec you set.

  • Main spec takes priority, then Off spec, then greed. So while a Ret paladin can’t off-spec loot a shield away from a main-spec roll from the Tank, anyone rolling greed could never win it over them. This also means that if you swap specs for a specific fight, like going Holy, you can still main spec roll for your desired items if they come from that boss without having to worry about hurting yourself by being flexible to your group.

  • Players won’t be able to win multiples of the same item - say that 2 sets of Shoulders drop. While you can roll Need on both of them, winning one will ‘remove’ your roll from the other.

  • Additionally, players can’t Need on a piece of loot if they’re wearing the exact piece at the exact item level, though in the event where this occurs but the dropped piece has a Tertiary stat or Socket, that roll would be possible (as those are upgrades).

  • Lastly, even after winning the roll, items remain fully tradeable without restrictions to any player that was eligible as a looter - as-in, if you weren’t locked to that boss previously. Inversely, this means that players who have already killed Boss 1 on Normal for the week can’t join for that boss and have loot traded to them (similarly, the need/greed pane won’t appear for that player).

As many in this thread have speculated, all players in Personal Loot were constantly ‘rolling’ behind the scenes, whether you wanted to or not. It’s not as simple as ‘with group loot you’re rolling against everyone, but in personal loot you’re rolling against fewer’. Changing to Group Loot for raids makes the process of loot acquisition and distribution more transparent and gives players more freedom to trade loot around and allocate it socially if they choose to do so.

Additionally, the current plan is for Group Loot to be active in Looking for Raid, though we’re open to taking action such as increasing the quantity of loot from LFR if the friction proves to be too much there.

On the Topic of BoEs:

Based on feedback and some further consideration, we’re likely not moving forward with Weapons as part of a BoE table just yet. It’s very possible that introducing that level of volatility would make it hard to us to verify how the other BoE changes are working (and if we’d like to support them). It’s on the table for future iteration, but might cause too much unintended chaos at the start of a period of so much systemic change for WoW as a whole.

Thanks for all your feedback thus far, and we hope this at least better clarifies how we envision this working in the near future.


1-11-23

We have a hotfix coming to the game later this week. With this hotfix, we will have:

  • Fixed some situations where players could win Need rolls on duplicate items in a single roll session when it should not have been possible.

This has already been working as intended for most items, but should now include items such as Tier Tokens and weapons.

Additionally, we’ve got some updates to loot distribution coming in 10.0.5–

  • Fixed an issue where, in some rare cases, players would get less loot than they should have on certain Raid sizes.
  • Fixed an issue where players could unconditionally roll Need on Set Tokens. The system will now check if the player owns the Token or the Set Piece itself at equal or greater power.
  • Players can no longer roll Need on any Profession recipe that they have already learned.
  • Players can no longer unconditionally roll Need on 1H weapons (or 2H for a Warrior in Fury loot spec).

For that last one, in 10.0.5, the system will now thoroughly identify if you can dual-wield the weapon in question, based on your loot spec. If you can, and you already have two versions of it at least as powerful as the item being rolled for, you can’t Need the item.


4-4-23

USER INTERFACE AND ACCESSIBILITY

  • Group Loot roll results frame (/loot) has been redesigned with a new look.

  • Group Loot now has a Transmogrification option that replaces Greed if the player has not collected the appearance. Transmog rolls take priority over Greed rolls.

I just want to understand the Off Spec, Main Spec rolling… Im tired of losing DPS trinkets to Healers.

If the healers set loot spec to DPS, that’ll be their main spec roll for the trinket. If not, they’ll be offspec for them. Same as loot spec has always worked.

“To err is human. Heh heh stupid humans.”

We can swap our loot spec to a DPS spec and should be something we are totally allowed to do.

I’ve done this before. My pally runs Protection while playing Ret, and every time i roll need as Ret, it still rolls my rolls as off-spec for Protection Items… Which is why i’m confused.

The vast majority of times people say “carry”, they’re really not. They’d have won whether they were there or not.