Honestly, it is not hard to start clearing heroic raids very early into a season with even a moderately decent group, and the gear you get from heroic isn’t very far off in power from what you get in high m+/mythic raiding. It comes down to being part of a good team if you want to gear efficiently, which is just how MMOs typically work. The more social you are, the easier time you will have.
The sentiment about gear discrepancies is totally fair.
I think boosting rewards from raiding would be fine. The lockouts are iffy. imo, i would keep lockouts only on mythic raids as it would be the best stuff around. It doesn’t bother me if raids has the absolute best gear, if i want it I’d do the raid.
M+ gear could have a aoe set bonus’s and raid gear could have ST set bonus’s?
This could easily be said about M+ as well, in fact, it’s much easier to get 4 good playes for a team than 10 for a raid, and you’ll get much better rewards from running M+ with them spamming keys with no lockout!
You overestimate the majority of the playerbase. I would say most players would struggle to clear Normal difficulty without being carried (intentionally or not). We saw much crying about M0’s being “too hard” which is about the same as Heroic Raids.
Part of getting better at this game is finding a steady group to play with, learning strategies and getting into the flow of how raids, keys, and so on typically run. It is much easier to make that progress in a consistent group than it is through pugs.
There are many times where you find people that actually hold you back because their skill is just not there or they don’t have the same level of commitment for improvement. I learned this in Shadowlands after returning from essentially WoTLK and joined a guild. They were great people who I could relate to on a personal level, but they struggled to clear Normal Nathria and got hard stuck on council.
Yes, finding a good group can help you improve, but that is much easier said than done. I find it much more enjoyable to pug and fly solo because I won’t be held back by others who I made a commitment with and vice versa.
Now, I do have a few friends who I will run with from time to time but nothing like a team.
Raiders are just too lazy/unskilled to do mythic plus. Mythic plus rewards should be greater because its the greater challenge. Raiding outside of mythic raiding is way too easy.
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Yes, that is part of the process of getting better at this game. Sometimes, you will outgrow the group you joined, and at that point you are left to decide if you want to stick with them, or search for something more at your level. But for people starting out? Those groups are a good starting point, until they are ready to move on to better guilds.
Yeah, that’s true. I fully agree with this although it can be difficult if you made personal connections with them. Part of growth and prioritizing social connections or game-content.
Raiding prior to mythic level is more an exercise in social skills, is there anyone who actuallly thinks normal and heroic raiding when you are on coms is anything except a casual night of gaming?
Raiding is for casuals since LFR. Mythic plus is where top end gaming happens in WoW.
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This is why things moving away from WoW based social structures has been great. I keep up with many people from old guilds and even join 1-2 of them specifically for their game nights. Discord becoming the defacto hub for guild communication has done wonders for maintaining social bonds once you as players have different goals and aspirations.
Difficulty is relative. So yes, there are people who think Normal Raid difficulty is difficult, for them.
I wouldn’t even consider LFR raiding.
Yeah I agree. I still am in their Discord although they all ended up moving on from WoW since then.
We clearly need Raid+, with timers, affixes and scaling trash/bosses.
Saying “Your favorite content isn’t as hard as mine” isn’t really an argument that has any barring on this topic. I’d also argue that m+ itself doesn’t even start getting any harder than mythic raiding until you are well past the KSH range, which the majority of players save for high MDI teams will never see anyways. It’s a complete moot point to this discussion.
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+1.
If we look at M+ and how Blizzard has historically balanced the key levels up to max rewards which this season is M+8-10, we can say it is definitively easier than Mythic Raiding. Anything past M+10 has no tangible rewards.
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This is a great point. What I was trying to get at is raiding is very much a casual experience when compared to mythic plus (outside of mythic raiding). There is no timer, raid leader instructs you, if someone leaves you replace them. You grab a drink and a snack and relax, you cant expect it to be the top of the food chain for end game when it has become such a watered down casual experience.
Mythic plus is more comparable to mythic raiding. Dont compare regular/heroic raiding rewards to mythic plus dungeons compare them to regular/heroic dungeons.
There is a timer though, raid bosses consistently have enrage timers. What there isn’t is depletion, but you also only get to do each boss for loot once a week so I guess that sorta balances out.
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I wouldn’t say it ruined the game, but it has definitely incentivized a huge balancing shift that strongly emphasizes multi-target DPS rotations in a way that never mattered as much prior to Legion.
It has also increased the general level of elitist behavior in the player base. I’m of the mind that they never should have made a person’s M+ history and rating publicly accessible. It just gives people another way to be judgemental.
Max power keys (8-10s) are easier than half the heroic raid bosses lol.