Mythic Plus is harder AND less rewarding, in other words simply NOT FUN

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
122

Opinion question. I think this season is good because aside from bugs, the difficulty scaling is good. It is more in-line with its Raiding counterpart like it should be. M+ has been getting easier and easier to the point of making raiding completely obsolete unless you are a consistent CE Mythic raider. This is coming from someone who doesn’t raid, but understands that end-game pillars should compliment each other and not be one sided.

In terms of the scaling itself, people are being extremely hyperbolic and unable to think rationally. Most of the complaints are about themselves and whataboutmeism. Just because you/they can’t do it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong. These people need to apply the same standards for M+ as they do with raids. It’s widely accepted that only a small minority of players will ever get CE or go far in Mythic Raids. This same acceptable standard should also be accepted in M+ where not everyone will reach the top of the reward structure.

If you look at past expansions and Season 1 in particular, this season is mild in comparison. If you or anyone played Season 1 of Shadowlands you would know that the “kite meta” was a direct result of the tuning/scaling. In Dragonflight Season 1, we saw a different set of challenges where there was a huge increase in overall unavoidable damage and trash ability spamming.

If you look at TWW S1, there are many players who are reaching and timing +5s (Previous +15s) on week 1 or 2 that have never hit those difficulties in the past Season 1s. This points to the scaling being significantly easier than before.

Anyone bringing up previous Seasons 2-4 are irrelevant for several reasons, but most notably due to starting gear. In Seasons 2-4, most people are in their previous season’s BiS secondary stats, trinkets, tier sets, embellishments. This is a huge gain in terms of potential DPS and survivability.

In Season 1 of any expansion, you have a 100 ilvl gap to cover on top of not having embellishments, tier, or proper secondary stats. To put this into better perspective, we started this season ~605 ilvl with a season cap of 639. That’s 34 ilvls within one season/raid tier. That’s massive. Even still, we had tons of people pushing +5s (previous +15s) in that 605 gear when they never timed +15s in past season 1s.

Overall, I enjoy M+ more when it’s an actual challenge during the gearing process. It’s a specific reason why I ran 3 keys in DF Season 3 and stopped because timing +17-18 on day one to me isn’t fun and I don’t think should be the norm. That +17-18 should have been like stepping into Mythic raids one day.

I don’t think in the large scheme of things that there are less people engaged in “core endgame content”. People are still running M0 (which now encompasses the previous M2-10 crowd), M+, Raids, and now Delves.

I base my opinions on facts and leave my feelings out of it. If I’m not able to do something, I don’t blame the game. Now why don’t you enlighten me, without whataboutmeism, about specifics of what isn’t good about the season and most importantly the why. Don’t use generalization or hyperbolics.

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123

So you dont raid, why?

I dont raid past AOTC because its simply not possible to commit to mythic raiding as a pug.

So what did people have left if they still wanted to push their ilvl and power? They had M+ to farm higher crests, upgrades and crafts. Now, myself, and all the other folks just like me, will not do that. It isnt even because we can’t, its simply because the time and commitment it takes to farm higher crests is disproportionate to the difficulty and absurdity of the content they drop from.

pugging 5 people is ALWAYS better and easier than 20 people, who by the way get locked together for a whole week. Henceforth = this season has killed progression for a LARGE portion of players who used to have 0 issues.

You are looking at this entire thing from a highly skewed perspective all in the name of what you enjoy as a personal challenge. You say people are hyperbolic about scaling, I disagree, the tuning is bonkers and that’s not even mentioning the countless bugs in dungeons and affixes.

It is widely accepted that CE raiders are only a small portion of the playerbase and you argue for that to be the case for M+ now going forward. You are actively arguing for less people to keep playing, and on top of that, you want it to be ‘widely accepted’.

You base your opinion entirely on your personal feelings of achievement, which is a +7 right now. The facts are, less people are engaging in high end M+, that’s a fact. The dungeons are full of bugs, that’s a fact, you don’t blame the game for bugs, ok, but you do blame the devs right? 20 people locked in a raid for a week on a tight schedule is light years harder to make happen DUE TO LOGISTICS (NOT SKILLS) than gathering 5 ppl any time/day of the week for endgame content to keep progressing, that’s a fact.

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124

The gearing progression is definitely slowed down this patch, and I think the biggest issue here is for those who filled out hero gear already anything below a 10 is pretty much pointless to run; this in turn creates a gap in players looking to pug and far worse retention if things go wrong in a key.

I’ve honestly never seen so many people leave keys, and the overall quality variance of players is horrendous this season.

Siege still has many bugs, my favorite of which is pulling through the floor in the entrance area and having an invisible enforcer beat dps to death.

8s seem like a more appropriate key level to be awarding gilded crests.

And stichflesh seems like a joke when saving spears, he lasted a whopping 42 seconds in a 9, might be a 1m 20-30s fight with good dps and or more gear on a 10 which is the last relevant key level for the majority of players.

3 Likes
125

I don’t raid for several reasons. For starters, I don’t find it as engaging. I play 1 toon and it’s this as a tank. Tanking raids is uber boring where 90% of the fight is “tank swap” and that’s it. With M+, I feel way more engaged. Routing, pacing, reactive gameplay depending on the group synergy, ect.

The other reason is because I have limited time to play. I run 2-4 keys a weeknight, more on weekends and I’d rather spend my time doing something that I enjoy, which to me is M+. For the past couple weeks, I haven’t even done delves or any of the weekly quests for the same reasons of prioritizing my game time.

You are conflating two different things. There’s a difference from having the pre-set skills to do Mythic raiding and not having the time commitment to execute it versus not having the pre-set skills to Mythic raid and not doing it either. If you are a AOTC player who also gets KSM, you are not someone who can make a claim that time is the reason you are not a Mythic Raider. It’s skill. If you needed to farm crests to get high ilvl in order to do said +15s, that further proves my point in that you needed gear to compensate.

I asked you to articulate why the scaling/tuning is bad without whataboutmeism and all you are doing is talking about yourself and how it’s bad because you can’t do it.

You literally asked for my opinion. Regardless, I clearly separated my personal feelings and opinions from what I think of M+ as a whole. If anyone is looking at this in a highly skewed way, it’s been you.

Explain to me how the tuning is bonkers when I gave you literal specific examples of why it’s not. This is a prime example of you not being able to separate your feelings from the topic.

M+ was like that in the past and this is just Blizzard resetting the difficulty. It used to be that ~1-4% of players were timing all dungeons at +20 which was similar to the % who got CE.

You are, again, inserting things that aren’t there.

I clearly am not because you are the one bringing up your “KSM”, “AOTC”, and my “+7”. It’s wildly hilarious that you are trying to gaslight me for something that you and only you have been doing this entire time.

Show me the numbers. The facts prove you otherwise. If +5and up are equivalent to +15 and up we have more people going into “high end M+” this early into a season than before in Season 1s.

What are the bugs, list them for me.

Here are the actual facts. You continuously gaslight, call things facts when they are not, unable to provide any proof/evidence to back up your arguments, try to use opinions as facts, and continuously dodge my questions. You have answered questions with questions every time or skirted around them without directly answering them for a reason. You have no idea what you are talking about and it’s clear that you are just regurgitating the opinions of others you read online.

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126

That’s a wall of text I aint reading, good day sir!

127

Lmao, that’s what I thought.

It’s always clear who doesn’t actually understand the nuances of something when they can’t provide any evidence of their argument and speak in generalizations the entire time.

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128

I will suggest you pick up a dictionary and read up on these words:

Fact
Feeling
Gaslight
Hypocrisy
Ego

Cheers!

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129

I clearly understand them because I quote you doing them whenever I call you out on it. You on the otherhand are continuing to try and gaslight because you can’t counter any of my points with actual data/evidence other than your feelings.

I’ve stuck to the topic and answered your questions in good faith and you have returned it with nothing, but trying to make things personal. Your inability to stay on topic during a discourse is something you should work on.

130

No sir you do not understand them. But it is ok, you peruse every M+ thread that exists and think you add value to it, all you are is a contrarian, nothing more nothing less.

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131

I clearly do understand them because I have a long history with M+ and pugging in particular. I am able to look at things with relativity and not let emotions get in the way. I talk in M+ threads because that is the content I participate in. How is that even an argument you are trying to use against me? That’s clearly circular reasoning.

Also, I am not a contrarian when I back up what I say. Unlike you, who dodge anytime I ask your to explain or articulate your stance. There are certain things that I agree with others on, this isn’t one of them.

You continue to speak in generalizations and trying to make things personal because you are completely incapable of staying on the actual topic of the thread.

132

I’m just responding to the last statement you commented regarding. Things to improve on this season : visible boss mechanics

Yes, they have made improvements (siege in particular)

But other examples, like city of threads and city of echoes… both last bosses, I’ve discovered far too many players in a +5 / +6 having not the foggiest clue about the mechanics. ……and I can’t really entirely blame them, it took me two wipes in a +2 for the puddles mechanic in city of threads to (one actually function, and two to recognize how to use it).

That said, we have delves boosting up players ilevel so players are skipping over keystones where they could learn the mechanics now. So we get keys in the mid range (5/6s) with a weirdly disproportionate player base. One run can be flawless, while the other is a death trap.

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133

100% I agree. They need to update their color palate and stop making everything purple or with indiscriminate borders.

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134

Oh but you are a contrarian. Why do you think so many people disengaged from a discussion with you? Sometimes you have to look in the mirror. Arguing with you is a waste of time, there is no reason to it.

135

This is definitely a large issue where people think that their ilvl is going to compensate for a lack of mechanical awareness. People are too focused on ilvl/gear rewards in a season that’s going to last for 6+ months. There’s more to progression than gear and that’s something a lot of people can’t seem to grasp.

Some people disengage with me because I’m blunt and I don’t care about your feelings. Others disengage because they think they understand something and are incapable of looking at things from a perspective outside themselves. People are selfish and when their entire argument is based on they themselves being stuck/limited it really weakens their stance. It’s one thing to have an opinion and another to claim the entire system is broken/tuned wrong simply because they can’t do it.

Again, I have backed up all of my claims with detailed explanations. You on the other hand have dodged every attempt or continued to try and pass off generalizations as fact.

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136

I get what you are saying, and I really don’t know where I stand on it anymore. I have some friends that are struggling quite a bit and this will be the reality for them.

But my brain is also like - “should mythic gear be a participation reward”. Does everyone need mythic gear? Not very mythic when you can just log in not learn the mechanics and get pulled through 10s and 9s from random people or friends because its that’s easy.

What if having full mythic gear felt like an actual accomplishment for once and not just something you are given for logging in. Bring back the days of people inspecting someone in town and being like “i wish i had their gear”. Something to strive for is not a bad thing.

137

Oof, you are burning hot!

138

Me: Not timing +10s atm, but fine with tuning. Makes arguments with historical and present facts.

You: Can’t do something on week 1/2 and blaming the game. Makes every argument personal. Dodges questions.

139

It really isn’t my problem you choose to ignore the facts that do not support your position.

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The problem here is that you continuously refused to state any facts. You try to pass off your opinions as facts when they aren’t. I’ve asked you multiple times to substantiate your claims and all you do is dodge.

141

I listed facts, you ignored them. To humor both of us, I went and read your reply and I do find it quite hilarious you don’t raid, then say most people don’t Mythic raid because of skill, rather than logistics. Then you say you don’t raid due to logistics while praising M+ for it’s newfound ‘skills’ required, make it make sense.

You have also lost your own path of progression as seen by your +5s and +7s. Enjoy convincing yourself you are having fun tanking for and dredging through vanishing pugs to reach your +10s.

Me pug tanking for the last 6 seasons farming the highest upgrades and not doing it this season is a fact. You’ve read the whys a million times now and choose to ignore them and be a contrarian the sake of… what exactly?

It’s a game, people play and engage with content they enjoy & stop when it becomes not fun, surely you can see and respect that.