I don’t think tanks should ever self sustain indefinitely, you should die if you make egregious mistakes but your baseline should not be self sustaining. You should need the rest of the group, and sure you can survive longer and make it easier on those players by playing well, but DF tanking was a farce to watch.
That’s part of what makes the current season unfun. Along with the design choices made to limit pull sizes and pacing.
It’s demoralizing (as a tank) to just get whipped down because someone else died. Not to say there shouldn’t be high pressure moments (for example, last boss in HoI). But it shouldn’t be the norm, imho.
And it’s not an absolute stance. There’s a lot of nuance to it. Like as a tank, overpulling is a mistake. If I pull too much and the whole group dies while I solo it in the hallway, that’s not right either. But given the extra dimensions of keys, I’m not sure how you could definitively solve for that at all key levels.
But, imho, I’d solve for tanks having fun before I solved for tanking being fair. With Peril, over pulling is already pretty deeply disincentivized. Realistically, I don’t think anyone desires we go back to timing runs with 29 deaths with the tank soloing the last boss.
Eh… Delves scale with number of participants and dungeons don’t. I think it’s a fair comparison. T11 delve can be a good challenge if you don’t outgear it, mostly because you have to brainstorm ways to separate elites if you can’t skip them. Haven’t run one since early season though, and I’m sure it would feel trivial in current gear. As are +8s.
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My 11 was done at 603 and went deathless /shrug
I like that i can self sustain while my tools are available. But once i deplete those, that’s it. And that’s how it currently is. 
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The tank is very punishing to play, and you can’t miss GCDs. If BDK misses Death Strike GCD, it goes 100-0’d with zero counterplay. The tank has to be pitch-perfect and can’t make a mistake.
The dungeons have outrageous tank busters and the tank doesn’t have enough cooldown to rotate for tank busters. Blizzard should feel very embarrassed with the tank balance and tank busters in M+. TWW S1 is easily the worst tanking season along with SL S1 in history.
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Yeah that’s the only real reason to do an 11, for the deathless achievement. I don’t remember what ilvl I was for mine, but it was early season so probably similar. Are you saying you couldn’t pull your weight in a +8 at 603?
I can pull my weight just fine in an 8 at that ilvl
But the unavoidable damage is considerably more punishing and I NEED other people. The 11 was run solo
Sure, but delves scale down for solo play. If dungeons flexed for solo play, you’d do it no problem.
I mean, I’ve never tried escorting healer + dps through a 5-man T11 delve. I’m guessing that deathless would be a lot more challenging than soloing as tank. Same reason I expect M+ based on death counter without timer would favor groups with all tanks.
Sure. But that’s the entire point. Dungeons DONT scale down. They’re not meant for solo play. You cannot make solo play as difficult as group content. When you REQUIRE 5 players versus only needing yourself.
It’s demoralizing as a player to need a tank, and when you find one, you learn they don’t know how to tank. Now, you can’t push buttons to dps, and the tank just dies.
Better to redesign the game to not need tanks.
The timer alone isn’t what makes it an end game mode. It’s the scaling plus the affixes plus the timer. M+ scales to the hardest PvE difficulty in the game. Yes, even tougher than mythic raid.
This sentiment that getting max rewards out of M+ requires no skill is and always has been absolute hogwash. Yes, max rewards out of M+ have been easier than max rewards out of mythic raid, at least when considering gearing an entire character sheet. And to make sure it’s clear, I’ve said for years now Blizzard should raise the level where max M+ rewards come from.
But the idea that any random person who can barely kill more than one world mob at a time can hit max level and expect to be able to complete an M+ dungeon at the level that is required to get max rewards is just absurd. That is simply propaganda that generally comes from mythic raiders who want to try to tear down the accomplishment of M+ players. Yes it should be more difficult to get, but the skill expression required to obtain those levels of gear from M+ has never been “free.”
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You’re in no position to call M+ a loot trough for unskilled players. Your head is stuck in the past thinking raid or die is good. There’s a reason why Blizzard moved away from raid or die because it leads the game being completely barren after a month of a new raid release. Raid logging was killing the game.
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The difficulty of gearing up through raid has less to do with actual execution difficulty and more about logistics anyways.
It’s not like mythic raid is that much harder than m+ it’s just logistically harder to dedicate that amount of time to get into mythic raiding compared to M+
Just a lot faster iteration cycle with M+
M+ probably more difficult than mythic raiding at the higher levels in terms of execution and should be rewarded fairly
Except raid logging is still the promoted style of gameplay. Well aside from farming all the cosmetics these days.
Brewa says no.
More importantly it implies all the fault lies on a solo player ‘for struggling in 8s’, as opposed to leaving reasonable doubt for just not getting into groups with the same caliber players some people can.
I have two toons above 2500 IO now, if I list +8 keys I get relatively decent players sign up (usually 2500-2700). If I were 2100 IO with no main, those same players would not be signing up and I would be having to make due with players who could either be alting, or players who have tried to climb for months and can’t.
Everyone’s gaming experience isn’t equal.
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Your achievements are account wide, you didn’t do any of those while they were current content.
Yeah I’m aware, I did PuG ICC just not all the way to Lich (we’d often do everything up to and including gunship), but still downed him in a PuG on normal, as well as pretty much every other Wrath raid.
Regardless, game is way less PuG-friendly today than it used to be.
That’s the point I wanted to make.
I used to PuG practically everything, now it’s a lot of work to do so, so I’ve kinda just stopped.
Maybe there’s just less of a player pool to pick from, so people are forced into cliques/guilds/groups to get anywhere.
Every tank could have their armor increased by 25% and their healing doubled and the game wouldn’t be broken.
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That’s not a terrible suggestion, although I don’t think it’s the armor, hp, healing done etc that necessarily makes the biggest impact on tanks. Having just gotten KSH on war tank today, I can say that what always screwed group runs up the most was too many mechanics that require very competent healers and dps to handle that can result in one or two shot deaths for the tank, regardless of the tank’s stats. (Obviously if the tanks had like 4x the health, it would be easier, but I’m talking about reasonable numbers and changes… we’ll obviously never be given 4x health for good reason).
What needs to change the most is how punishing everything is. Have lots of mechanics checks but stop depleting the keys and stop the massive timer subtractions for deaths. If you could find a better and less stressful way to test people in M+ than just timing them, that would be great, although realistically I don’t know what that would be.
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