Normal is equivalent to heroic today. You can easily pug heroic.
It would be. Tank kills stuff while group dies isn’t fun.
I don’t think the current ‘only 60% of the group is allowed to have fun as DPS’ really isn’t sustainable either.
If tanks and healers aren’t having fun, they’re not going to continue.
And that’s where we’re at, now.
They wouldn’t be doing all these M+ surveys and stuff if the game mode was ‘just fine’.
It’s simply hell for PuGs.
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If tanks don’t want to actually tank. I propose we remove the need for tanks.
The idea of someone needing to be immortal to have fun, doesn’t work.
And for healing to be fun, people need to be able to die else you might as well AFK.
Healers should be having fun right now.
It’s no coincidence that S3 of DF was the easiest by far, and the most keys were being run.
Hard =/= fun for most people.
Yes, there’s the e-peen crowd that loves hard content, but that’s only ever been the minority of the player base in any massively multiplayer game.
If it dies for PuGs, it’s essentially ‘dead content’.
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It’s not like we deleted half of the keys or implemented delves, nope.
How fortunate, this game has multiple difficulties.
Not dead. People are geared, and see little point.
If hard was fun, Mythic raids would be far and away the most cleared content lol. And PvP wouldn’t be as dead as it is.
I don’t even recall who asked for these changes aside from the top players.
Removing low keys definitely hurt the PuG scene most of all- people were comfortable knocking out low keys. Now they’re thrown into the fire and expected not to burn.
There were people who liked keys pre-squish, myself included.
Delves, are a solo experience and not really comparable- I like dungeons, not delves lol.
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People play for number go up. And if number go up becomes too hard or isn’t possible anymore. They stop.
And people do delves (because it easy.) Find keys too hard, and thus, don’t.
Blizz removed fluff key levels because it’s mechanically the same, people stand in stuff, boss dies.
Why have multiple variants?
Same reason why we’ve got LFR, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic raids.
People were comfortable playing at a certain level.
Now, they’re forced into harder content they are neither ready for, or equipped to handle. Or simply do not want to sweat for.
It’s only ‘fluff keys’ to people who go higher.
Except we have four raid difficulties, yet m+ somehow needs… 35?
People reach “the wall” at some point, then they struggle.
And if fluff were present, it might extend playtime one or two weeks, then we’re back to the same problem. Real issue is delves for playtime metrics.
The wall has been pushed a lot closer and people reach it sooner now than ever, and that’s why M+ is having the complaints it has.
It’s almost exclusively a PuG issue.
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Yes, people reach it sooner (thanks to delves mostly.) And thus runs are down.
We could nerf delve loot to bring m+ numbers up.
The removal of lower keys will take a bite regardless.
To what point is it to prop up m+ stats? If people are spamming heroic dungeons instead?
No it isn’t.
Look, I get it. You’re stuck in the past with the “good old days” and can’t get over that WoW has evolved and moved away from raids being the only PvE end game.
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Correct. Roll back some of the functionality that add-ons have; they should never have been allowed the free reign they’ve had because it’s an arms race with the devs and it’s a race to the bottom to keep making the game only for the small part of the community that knows how to run a ton of mods in intricate detail.
Personally I play to enjoy specific specs and get the mogs/mounts I want, not just to make number go up, but that’s me lol
It was never as PUG friendly back then as now.
Only 10-man’s perhaps and late into a patch when we were geared or doing previous raids / 1-boss raids.
Even Normal 25 was full guild. No place for PuGs when many guildies were benched. No flex Remember?
Now you can PuG into anything anytime because of changes to lock outs and raid sizes over the years.
I just remember Wrath being the most PuG-friendly time I’ve ever had in WoW.
You just showed off your gearscore, and even if you didn’t know the fights, you’d say you’ll watch a video or something before the encounter, and you’re in lol.
These days, everyone wants proof of a clear before you’re even allowed in. There’s seemingly no wiggle room to just ‘try’ as a PuG, you just need to have it done already in the first place.
It’s very fun for the tank, which is why it’s necessary. Most people like it, just a few loudmouths who don’t.
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hahaha give it up! dungeons were always beginner content! throwing a timer and goo on the ground to avoid doesnt make it end game
Errrrrr…
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Eh, this isn’t really a fair statement on a couple counts.
I get it’s popular to pretend like every player has the same skill ceiling and the only thing standing in the way of them playing at a RWF level is desire. But just like every other activity on the planet, different players will have different aptitudes in WoW. And that’s before we even consider the players who would be unwilling or unable to put in the time required to mythic raid in the first place. Yes, mythic raid would be more popular if more players found it fun; but the idea that enough players would have both the desire and ability to mythic raid to make it more popular than difficulty levels that demand far less of both is divorced from reality.
Also, just like player skill, different players are going to find different things appealing. Yes, hard is fun for many people. Why do you think so many players push their score even when they know they won’t come anywhere near the title reward? Yes, those players are the minority, I’m not disputing that. But it’s not a valid argument to dismiss anyone who says there are players who like challenge just because those players are a minority.
My complaint isn’t with the number of keys that were removed, it’s the levels that were removed. The most variation in ability occurs at the entry point to any activity, which lends itself to the most granularity at the entry level. Yeah, even if the majority of players in keys find an old +5 to be the same as an old +2 that just happens to take 45 seconds longer, there are players for which an old +2 is a reasonable challenge and an old +5 is nigh impossible.
It would have been a far healthier change to the mode to remove every odd key, and then squish the levels to fill in the gaps that creates. The starting point stays the same, the gentle increase in scaling still happens at the low end, but the players who were already comfortable in mid to high level keys get meaningful jumps in difficulty sooner.
So what makes something end game, exactly? Because I think if you actually tried to apply a dictionary definition of the term, you’d find that max level dungeons all the way back to vanilla would qualify.
But even setting that aside, this response is pure straw man; I gave you two other factors that make M+ more suitable as an end game pillar than standard dungeons which you left out, unless you think the affixes we’ve gotten equates to “poo on the ground,” despite only a couple affixes amongst several dozens using ground effects. And even if you do, the most important thing is the scaling. M+ scales to the hardest PvE experience in WoW, yes even harder than mythic raid. There is no intellectually honest argument to discount M+ as an end game pillar unless you also do not feel raid is an end game pillar.
M+ should be removed from WoW. PvP can take its place on the vault. M+ is a mini-game that has nothing to do with the Lore. Take it out of Azeroth and make it a mobile game. The poison spread throughout all group content due to the timer and IO ratings are immeasurable.
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