Yeah, I wasn’t the one who said you don’t need most of them at +10 timed for 2500.
I know you weren’t <.< looks at kyoko
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Higher score for better timings
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Right, but therein lies the crux of what a lot people in this thread, including me, were saying. It’s tough to get said timings with pugs
I’m pugging 10s and 11s like eating popcorn. 12s are where it becomes less forgiving (just my experience).
It’s possible that it’s because I have a lot of Latin America server players always in the mix. Their communication isn’t usually good, and they seem to have a lot of latency problems and die a lot. Sometimes I get really good players from those servers, usually not. They seem to think they can just zerg everything without knowing any mechanics; perhaps a by-product of the communication barrier
So much depends on players getting at least some of the important kicks and using some defensives at obvious times. Players need to at least try.
Well, by way of illustration… here are my last few runs:
Tirna Scithe 10 - the dps was so low that they couldn’t kill ingra moloch after getting the tree guy down four times and the group fell apart
SoB 10 - we made it through to the end but the dps was low-ish and then the feral druid did something (I don’t actually know what) on the last boss that got himself, a dps and the healer killed, and we wiped and missed the timer.
GB 10 - we made it to valiona but the dps apparently couldn’t hack it and kept dying, group fell apart
SV 10 - made it to the duo boss but the ranged dps wouldn’t interrupt the caster after his intermission, and also apparently the healer couldn’t keep everyone up even though we got close to downing them both
CoT 10 - healer kept standing in boss mechanics and dying because he “couldn’t see them”; group fell apart at coaglamation
Keep in mind these runs were all in succession, one after the other. This is the failure rate people complain about… it may not be everyone’s experience, and I don’t know why that is, but I’ve certainly seen it. I consider it a minor miracle I had a good group for necrotic wake and they interrupted the skeletons on the second boss.
And there were many other failures before the 10’s I have timed, as well.
Oh, and also sitting in the group finder for 30 min before finally getting invited even with good score and ilvl, even as a tank.
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If you delete delves, failure rate should decrease significantly.
It greatly limits the power of failing upwards.
It doesn’t take long for the actual drops from m+ to stop becoming rewarding and then all that’s left is crests (which you get less of for failing already).
The real rewards after a month or so of grinding m+ are vault slots, so it doesn’t matter if failing keys still rewards gear and no depletion. The only difference is no key depletion. Nobody wants to waste their time pushing up failed keys.
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No rewards means no rewards though, not some. No failed run vault rewards, no failed run crests, and no failed run end-of-dungeon loot.
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So one step forward, 3 steps backwards then.
There’s no faster way to make people quit a game or system than to completely waste their time.
It’s time to make it less punishing towards your time. Nobody is asking for more rewards for failure.
That’s literally the ask. Get Mythic vault slots on a failure and keep the key.
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Not depleting a key isn’t a reward. It’s wanting to not have time wasted.
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lol… we just want not a punishment, not necessarily rewards for failing. Stasis, no change in either direction.
There’s too much of a gap between 8 and 10. This feels like ELO hell where you are at the bottom of the skill/gear/io requirement for a 10 but don’t need 8’s and 9’s because you already are at full heroic 626 and need 10s for vault.
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I think a big part of it is not just the difficulty of the content but just trying to find people for keys in general.
How am I supposed to get practice on keys when it’s that difficult to get into a group?
Honestly, they should have follower dungeon version you can scale up where you get no item rewards and no io but can feel how bosses are at higher level and what to interrupt etc. to practice.
And DF was a downgrade from SL.
Putting more cognitive load in to keys was a mistake.
Harder is not always better Blizzard.
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- If the original route was objectively bad even for the level they were running, sure. But not every +9 route is going to be objectively bad for a +9; improving the route for a +10 might be a necessity, but it will necessarily require higher risk in some of those pulls. Otherwise the +10 route would have been what they were running at +9 to begin with.
- It’s an oversimplification to say route updates make things easier. Oftentimes route updates when going from +X to +X+1 are reallocating risk such that one part becomes easier while another becomes more difficult (but still possible). And that’s only when the goal is to reduce the chance of failing; many route updates straight add risk in tradeoff for speed (so every aspect of completing the dungeon is more difficult, but completing in time becomes easier/possible).
- Not all defensives have the same cooldown. If on a +9 you’re using Survival Instincts on the first trash pack after a boss, but you now need it for the final overlap of that boss’s mechanics on a +10 that your group simply didn’t see on the +9 fortified, you won’t have it for the trash pack. And while I was only talking about tanks for brevity, this may be even more critical for healers and DPS cooldowns which are more limited than whether a tank has enough cooldowns.
If you want to get caught up in the semantics of perception of difficulty by players and the numeric difficulty of scaling, I don’t really have much appetite for that discussion. I have been very clear I have been talking about the player experience, in which perception is very clearly reality.
No, but I wasn’t talking about the math of the dungeon itself. If a team decides they need to adjust their route or cooldown use in response to both fortified and tyrannical being active, that will adjust the math for that team for subsequent pulls.
There are teams reaching different gear thresholds throughout the entire season. The concerns I’m talking about might only impact your team during the first couple weeks, but a team consisting of players for which this is the first season they are taking M+ seriously, they might be getting there now.
Quality of play also matters here; even if at a certain gear level a 10% jump shouldn’t matter, for some groups it will. Yes we can always treat the ‘git gud’ argument toward groups that have clear deficiencies as superseding anything to do with the mechanical dungeon changes. But since I’m not even saying anything should change, just highlighting that difficulty goes up disproporiately at the point where fortified and tyrannical go live together, I’m not sure why it’s so criminal to state that.
First, you’re just arguing semantics here. Whether you want to call it a reward or a perk or benefit, the fact remains that not depleting a key would mean less of a cost of failing to time than present.
Second, and possibly more importantly, I would bet money that the amount of time wasted without depletions of keys +10 and below would drastically increase. Most keys that I’ve seen fail today are the result of one or more player who does not belong in that key level getting into such a key. I suspect that’s pretty common across the entire key landscape. Those players aren’t likely to start manually dropping keys they get that are way over their heads since eventually they could get a group that can carry them to success. The number of keys that will never reach the finish line will skyrocket.
And to go one step further, even amongst the capable groups, the meta would transition to doing a massive first pull every single time that’s high risk but high reward, and simply starting over if things go sideways. How much time would be wasted by teams restarting a key 10 times before they finally got their 10% mega pull to work?
Yes players can make things harder on themselves by being bad
But that doesnt make the dungeon itself harder
The only difficulty tuning is key scaling from the prior level from corresponding weeks.
People arent failing 10s because they need so many more cooldowns to last the extra 7 seconds the 10% increase in trash mobs health takes, leading to 37 deaths in the run from all the wipes.
People fail 10s because of the throughput required to deal with all the extra health in the same time frame.
Time. Time is the biggest adversary. The time it takes to burn through all that extra health in the dungeon. Thats the difficulty