Well I was for arguing with you. Unless you don’t count “Account temporarily on hold” as a ban.
Also, preface with a /joking next time.
If you got your game account on hold, it wasnt because of your forum post.
It was my forum account on hold.
Not for the post I quoted.
I spoke a similar sentiment without insulting anyone and was struck.
I cling to that incident every day.
I am sure the word “similar sentiment” is carrying a lot of the weight here.
And if you were truthful, we’d both see it was for something that warranted it.
You do not get forum suspended for merely stating you want raids more accessible.
Look. I just said it also.
“We will let you have the gear you need to progress after you have progressed without that gear.” LOL.
The idea that changes to the game are (or should be) made for the sole purpose of eliminating complaints is hilariously clueless. They have a plan, and changes they make are intended to change gameplay and player behavior to bring about that plan. Complaints only become a factor when they are accompanied by a large number of players leaving over some specific issue. When you see a lot of outrage followed by a game change, you aren’t seeing what people are saying on the way out.
Often they will stick with some feature despite its clear unpopularity, apparently under the impression that if they double down on what players are finding makes the game no longer fun to play and a good reason to leave, they will “adapt” and grow to like that change and come back to the game.
You can’t change human nature. You can’t change what people find to be fun or entertaining. If you decide to make the game unpleasant to play for people who aren’t playing in fixed teams, they aren’t going to change their careers and abandon their family responsibilities in order to be able to play in a fixed group on a popular schedule. The message they will get is that you don’t value their time or money and don’t want them playing the game anymore.
It’s meant to be a closed club for elites in esports teams. The idea that somebody on the wrong side of the learning curve is going to put together a successful esports team of screwups like themselves and find the same success as every esports pro is just hilarious.
So they can die to the same pulls with the same mechanics and be worse off? This thought process is crazy.
Your entire post is hilarious
Yes. What makes the timer toxic is its effect on other content throughout World of Warcraft. It creates a culture where everything is rushed, which is fine inside M+ but not in the rest of Azeroth. For example: LFR & Normal raids. Instead of being considerate of others, a tank (most times) or any M+ player (I know b/c I can see their scores in my tooltip with the use of an addon) will pull unnecessary packs that lead to trash wipes. Additionally, bosses are pulled without the raid group inside the room, leading to wasted time when the boss targets someone outside the room and resets. Another example: Timewalking and Heroic Dungeons: Same thing here. It’s always an M+ player and usually a player with a 2k or above score, who will overpull areas, and blast ahead with blinders on, causing wipes and boss fights with players locked out of the room defeating the purpose they set out to accomplish which was to go fast. Also, the name-calling, verbal abuse, arguing, and harassment of other players inside an M+ dungeon are created b/c of the need to beat the timer.
This type of behavior did exist prior to Legion. But as someone who has played since 2004, I can say the timer ushered in an entirely new breed of toxicity to the player base. Players prior to Legion did try to “speedrun” but it’s apples and oranges compared to now and the player toxicity continues to get worse in group content.
It seems you are not able to see the forest through the trees.
I could see them adding this to each tier: KSE, KSH, KSM, KSL. Except this seems to be their idea for a tangible reward for 2850, so they’d need to brainstorm something else for that. Maybe 2850 could reduce cooldown on portals for when you don’t end up completing a dungeon? I mean, sometimes things happen even if no one deserts; sometimes plans change or group never fills, or everyone agrees to call it. Maybe at 2850 the CD becomes 4hr instead of 8.
You can say it, but I will say that’s not my experience. I started playing in WotLK, and there were as many rude players then as now. Which is to say, about the same % you meet anywhere else in life.
So when you say yes, you actually meant no, then?
The desire to run content quickly did not begin with M+, that has existed since at least Wrath of the Lich King. In a game built on grinding, with so much of a focus on gear as the primary progression path, progression-minded players have always had an incentive to clear content as quickly as possible because this allows players additional runs over the course of time. If you want to say M+ being farmable for gear that’s a higher quality than was ever possible to be farmed reinforced a rush culture, that would make more sense; but the dungeon timer simply isn’t it.
But to go one step even deeper, as a mode, M+ is the slowest form of small group content by a country mile. The fact that there is a timer doesn’t change the fact that getting ever increasing gear rewards requires far more time as you move up in key level. I would highly suggest the average completion time of dungeons has gone up significantly since the inclusion of M+ compared to what it was previously.
Did you even read this back to yourself to see if it made any sense, logically?
M+ specifically discourages pulling unnecessary packs because there is a timer. The meta strategy in M+ is to skip as much as possible while still reaching 100% enemy forces efficiently.
And not only is there a timer, the available time your team has goes down with each death, further disincentivizing players from pulling extra packs; whereas with raid, if your group wipes, you just go again with no lasting impact of the deaths beyond the time lost recovering from the wipe.
There is no way you can possibly blame any aspect of M+ for people pulling extra stuff in your raid when such a strategy is the most detrimental to an M+'s success when compared to raid.
When was the last time this happened in an M+ key? Yes, this is a problem; but attributing it to M+ where it simply does not happen is absurd.
Most of my Timewalking groups consist of players who are under level 80 will not have an M+ score and raider.io will now allow them to be listed as alts of players. I’d be very curious how you know for sure those players are 2K M+ players across the board… I’d also be curious how often you find someone capable of reaching the 200 M+ score to show up in raider.io who still runs heroic.
I have run nearly 2,000 PUG keys ranging from a pre-squish +2 to a pre-squish +22. I’ve had many groups fail to meet the timer, and some even fell apart completely before coming close to even finishing the dungeon. I can count on one hand the number of times anyone said a single word toward an individual player during those failed keys. The amount of times the group was cordial with statements akin to “just not our key, gg” compared to anything that could be considered toxic is 20:1, at least.
Most frustration, when there is any verbalized, is around players not executing mechanics correctly. It’s not surrounding the timer, it’s players not wanting to keep wiping when a player is in a +8 without having seemed to grasp even a basic understanding of the dungeon mechanics. It’s the same kind of sentiment that would happen when teams would fail to interrupt the mage during the PVP boss in Magister’s Terrace back in TBC, not around a timer.
I also started in 2004, and by far the most toxic environment I’ve ever experienced in that time was LFR Dragon Soul. Let’s also not pretend like mid level raiding guilds who thought they were better than they were from vanilla through WoD were shining examples of positive player behavior.
You are so singularly focused on the timer in M+ that you aren’t considering two other massive paradigm shifts M+ brought about that I’m certain are the source of more toxicity.
First, M+ was the first time top end PvE rewards were achievable by PUGing. Yes, there are successful PUG raids, but rarely at the top difficulty level. And those that are at the top difficulty, the final bosses are almost always completely out of reach. It’s not a surprise in the least that when an appreciable percentage of groups are PUGs that the level of toxicity would be higher than an environment where nearly the entire ecosystem at the top difficulty are guilds.
Second, the individual accountability with such a small group is far higher, making weak links stand out more prominently. This makes it far easier to blame a person who misplays when the group struggles. The chances of problems coming up are higher with the difficulty scaling up to raid levels of difficulty.
If you wanted to talk about either of these this as a catalyst for increased toxicity, I wouldn’t really dispute it. But the timer, something that has existed in raids for the entire history of the game and is possible to be ignored unlike every other source of difficulty present in PvE, and exists in the dungeon mode that is pulled by far the slowest, is just not it.
And the most successful season of all time was S3 of DF where even in a PuG someone could leave and you would still be able to finish easy.
Not to mention vanilla WoW where everything is an absolute joke, entire game is basically welfare gear, and it is the most popular version of WoW of all time.
WoW dads playing Classic for what, the 3rd of 4th time by now
People dot wanna admit it, but wanna make WoW popular? Wanna make M+ popular again? Just make it an absolute joke. When it launched in Legion it was literally raining AP and Titanforging gear at you every run. They didn´t nerf 3-chesting until .2.5 or something.
Barely anyone Mythic raids anymore. Who cares about these people.
Would be like designing the entire game around pet battles, except there are probably more pet battlers than there are ppl who clear the mythic raid.
Legitimately every single part of this statement is incorrect. The timer isn’t toxic, it does not have an impact on other content, and the there is not an issue with people wanting to run content quickly elsewhere.
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I’d definitely just leave keys if this were the case.
I think I speak for everyone (me) when I say that we’d all prefer to get a vault slot and loot for sticking it out in that bricked run than nothing at all. Keep depletion imo.
Looks like, it’s working as intended. If people are frustrated, they find something else. Blizz wants players to play more Raid than M+. And Blizz gave 2 Raids… Nerubar Palace and Black Rock Depths.
People perception of M+ is … Free or Easy Loots. Blizz wanted to change it.
But it works fine for me as a Casual player.