What is bad about leaving a key? If the shared goal becomes uncompletable. shouldn’t that be the expectation?
Nothing at all. I’m not against key leaving, I’m against this guys idiotic suggestions.
For real. In fact, they should stop giving loot to anyone in game unless you get CE within the first 2 weeks of the expansion.
No it wasn´t
I´ve played this game since the original beta. Game was an absolute joke. I was just a kid and joined the best raiding guild on a server, and even I was disappointed with how easy it was.
It´s just facts at this point. Whenever the game is easy it does well.
That’s just perspective.
The timer creates a need to rush, push, skip, etc. This playstyle is fine IF M+ was it’s own stand alone game outside of WoW. The “toxicity” I’m talking about isn’t the arguing, harrassment or players being mean. It’s the playstyle of going fast in all situations that is toxic to the game. Rushing, pushing and puling as much as possible in LFR/Normal raids, Lower Keys, and Normal/Heroic/Timewalking Dungeons. This “going fast” playstyle is the poison that has washed over World of Warcraft and it’s nice to see that Blizz has come out publicly and admitted that numbers are trending down in M+ and gameplay isn’t fun.
The desire to do so did not come from M+; M+ formalized the desire players were already exhibiting along those lines. Even if we say having the timer encourages such behavior today, M+ was a response to what players were already doing.
But even setting that aside, the timer has a much larger impact than just creating a need to rush. It’s a source of difficulty that has multiple avenues of counterplay that also is only a soft requirement. No other form of progression gate in WoW is like this. Most have only a single form of counterplay (git gud). And failing to meet the requirement results in no reward and no progression; you simply have to try it again in order to realize the reward or progression.
Nevermind the fact that M+ is by far the slowest run form of dungeon content across all flavors of WoW by a country mile…
- Then WoW was toxic far longer than Legion when M+ was introduced.
- This is why the term “toxic” is just as meaningless as the terms e-sports and 1%. You are choosing to apply a definition to the word that isn’t well accepted per any definition I can find and then working backward to justify your position to that new definition.
You are drastically oversimplifying this to try to drive home the point that going fast is the only thing that happens in M+. There have been thousands of changes to M+ from Legion to TWW, including a dozen or more going into TWW. Blizzard making a statement in an interview that players don’t find it fun simply cannot be applied to just that one aspect of M+. Players could very well find the current season unfun or even the last few seasons unfun yet still like the general concept of the mode.
Also, the “trending down” statements from the PC Gamer clickbait trash are nothing but the “damned lies” part of statistics. They are comparing drastically different difficulty ranges in their numbers and completely ignore the normal trend of participation dropoff from season to season.
WotLK vs TWW regarding “speed runs” and “toxcity” is apples vs oranges. Ofcourse all that exsisted. It’s nowhere near the level it is today and that is because of M+ and the gameplay design around it. IMO, the current M+ design does not belong in any MMORPG. It’s a mini game that has nothing to do with the lore of World of Warcraft. It’s a bottomless pitt of toxicity unless you are playing with a regular group. The timer and the current M+ gameplay design is the reason behind all this. Blizzard acknowledged that they are not concerned with “raw participation numbers” but are aware that numbers are trending down. The main concern was “fun gameplay”, which is currently abysmal and part of the reason why players are not participating as much as before.
The current M+ would make a good mobile game. It should not be part of World of Warcraft.
Timer makes things difficult.
Yes, I get it. People want BIS loot with easier content.
lol nah. Stick to your delves. Leave mplus alone. We don’t want dumbed down content.
Why do you think I do delves? I haven’t done one in several weeks. M+ is a mini-game that has nothing to do with the Lore of World of Warcraft. It should be removed entirely from retail and given its own mobile game.
But your comment is part of the reason the toxicity exists. M+ is eating its own community and that bad behavior is bleeding into other parts of World of Warcraft. Blizzard has acknowledged participation is down and that the main concern is “fun gameplay”.
Changes are coming to it.
IMO, it should be removed entirely from retail and made into a mini-game.
You’re not good at the game.
Don’t care.
Nah. You stick to your simple content and leave those of us who enjoy a challenge that challenge.
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If key depletion is removed, what’s to stop people from replacing people after the first pull to try again?
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It’s not getting removed. If it did the rewards for not timing the key would also need to be removed.
Hey welcome back.
New is kinda funny as its been here a while but man you been gone a really long time.
Oh no what happened?
Yea that kinda happens when you have no IO or very low ilvl people. Not really anything the devs can do about that. But making your own groups is a start and finding people via discord such as the recruitment discord or just adding people you meet will make it allot better.
Yea people tend to leave keys if someone is failing to do their job or the key is bricked. As finishing a depleted key doesnt offer much.
There is more pug groups but i always advocate runnig with people and adding them or joining a m+ guild/community or discord helps allot.
Again thats not a blizzard issue thats a player issue. Nothing blizzard does will curve human nature. But if you want i can help you over discord add me same as my charecter name and i can get you into groups with peo0le find you a community and maybe even run some keys with you and get you some IO so you get better groups.
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So to recap, we’ve established the reason the timer is toxic is because it encourages players to rush, but rushing in content prior to M+ isn’t an apt comparison for reasons? The style of dungeons that Blizzard has built since wrath is what we’re seeing today, but M+ was the source of that “bad” design even 8 years before M+ was released. And even though every aspect of M+ outside of the leaderboard players added was present prior to M+, M+ doesn’t belong in an MMORPG.
I don’t care if you like M+. If it’s not for you then it’s not for you. But you are driving one of the biggest cases of confirmation bias I have ever seen trying to convince others that M+ is bad.
It is not possible for anyone, including Blizzard, to isolate what about M+ today is less fun for players than it was in previous iterations. Given the timer has been present the entire time, and since DF the timer has been as lenient as ever, it seems odd that this would be the season players finally flip the table in anger in a fit of rage. I think I’d look at tank and healer changes, highly technical dungeon mechanics, higher grinding requirements for crests, a much more strict meta bleeding into the game, and an affix that makes deaths far more punishing for progression than it already was before I look at one of the things that hasn’t changed in the entire history of the mode. Oh no silly me, it has to be the timer…
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For many of us, M+ is our favorite part of the game. My friends and I gather in discord for M+ several nights a week. Why would you take that away from us? How would you feel if we removed your favorite?
I suspect the following factors are key:
- Changes to how stops work, especially aoe stops, has made it harder to pug without organized interrupts.
- Changes to tank and healer dynamic has made it harder for a couple of players to carry groups.
- Community cried out for changes to affix system after Dragonflight, and new systems always need adjustments.
- Gear and portals were actually easier to obtain than ever before, so many players got those then took breaks to do other things.
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All likely culprits as well. But my point is we will never be able to figure out what combinations of these things, plus any other changes occurred from the reference points to now, plus any other changes with the players themselves have led to a drop in popularity. The poster to whom I was responding was trying to claim that one specific aspect of the M+ game mode is unfun, and it took until TWW S1 for players to realize that.
And that’s if there even is a drop in popularity given the PC Gamer article elected to compare +16 data to previous +20 data and completely failed to address how a similar number of keys are being run per day today as in the average previous season and the the falloff has followed similar patterns. But I’ll just leave that alone…
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My personal experience was that several of my friends reached all their goals early then went on break. Portals were done weeks (months?) ago, so unless you were pushing for title… And without M+, they elected to spend time with family and play other games.
Which is fine. Every time we talk Blizz into making progression faster and easier, we are also effectively asking for longer lulls between seasons.