Just for my edification, you do acknowledge that completing higher level keys yields more rewards, thus reducing the time to accrue that gear?
Your talking about one off peices which always happened. Hell Resto Druid BIS were PVP shoulders in ICC…doesn’t mean you had to raid to be competitive in PVP or run Wintergrasp to be competitive in PVE.
And iirc prior to Naxx 40 Bis weapons for almost every class were Grand Marshall weapons…from PVP.
And no in WOTLK and CATA you were not competitive in PVE Gear…that was the quickest way to get graveyard farmed in BGs and RBGs…and God help you if you were out questing in PVE gear on a PVP server…you were in for a good time then.
Bottom line for twelve out of SIXTEEN years…there was separate gearing with a little bit of crossover. Raiding was not the be all end all of gear, at all. There were rewarding gearing paths for all forms of content and people grew to enjoy some over others…now we have Mythic plus, and people enjoy it…Im just starting it to see what it is, and while I’m not impressed so far other people are.
It may come as a shock to most raiders but some people like WOW…and the don’t like raiding.
They just can’t be asked to think that raiding is in anyway fun. They either aren’t overly social, or they just find it boring to wipe until enough people execute the mechanics correctly enough to down the boss…
AND THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN OK.
PVP progression was there for them.
Profession progression was there for them.
And for the past 4 years Mythic Plus has been there for them. (As a side note: I am enjoying the LFG system for Mythic+…I honestly missed the old way of doing dungeons)
And they enjoyed it…and felt rewarded for their effort through it.
And much like PVPers they are feeling like the endgame they enjoy is being gutted in favor of, and at the behest of raiders.
Does their response surprise you?
It shouldn’t…it really shouldn’t.
Because for some of these people…this is the second time they are getting screwed over in favor of raiders on gear…because alot of them are your BG PVPers…who had a fun and rewarding experience in PVP…until legion…and they said, well I can run Mythics for gear…and still be viable in my BGs.
And now in SL…they are losing that as well…again…infavor of content they do not want to participate in…again…and they are (and I include myself) upset that once more they cannot just do their preferred content in the limited playtime they have.
They don’t want to waste their playtime raiding for gear…they want to use their playtime to PLAY their character in content thats enjoyable…weather that is BGing, or running M+, or simply farming mats to craft gear…they want to do that…they don’t want to be in your raid. Hell most of them don’t even want to see LFR let alone Normal, Heroic, or Mythic.
And ya know what…
You probably don’t want them their either because they are not going to be an asset…which wastes everyone’s valuable time.
Once more, I bolded the operative word.
The more insurance you want, the more time you need to invest. At the upper echelons of insurance, the time investments get, quite frankly, unhealthy.
Your call.
I acknowledge that it technically gives more titan residuum but proved to you with math that doing a 17 vs a 15 does not actually reduce the time it takes to get gear. The difference is too small.
You saw “BIGGER NUMBER, MORE GOOD” and that was all the thought you put into it. It took you seven weeks for three Azerite pieces from the vendor whether you did 15s or 17s.
Imagine nerfing M+ in 2 directions (vendor trash ilvl and vendor trash quantity) yet M+ will STILL be the fastest, easiest, and most lucrative way to gear up in the game.
Because it was so MASSIVELY over-rewarding before. It will still be over-rewarding in Shadowlands, but only half as much. Still tops everything else, though.
1 Like
Lol let’s get out of the straw mans…
Edit for you: the fastest way to initially gear up in shadowlands. And this statement is contingent on absolute raid failure, a complete inability to knock over even a boss or two. BFA boss loot was 25% / boss (citation in other threads). M+ does not offer anything at EOD post week 1. Cheers mate
I got news for you!
- Shadowlands has PvP vendors!
- They sell i190 gear that scales to i226 with rating
- It all has Versatility on it
- 30 of the 36 specs in the game have Vers/X BiS PvP itemization
- PvP trinkets now have a 2/2 set bonus that increases vers about 10-20%
- Best in Slot PvP gear is now 100% from PvP. Literally no PvE required (or even recommended)
Enjoy.
1 Like
M+ will be the more lucrative way to gear up, even though it has a lower ilvl than Heroic Raids, and there are multiple bosses to get loot from in raids, compared to a loot % nerf in Mythic Plus for killing last boss? What have you been smoking dude.
1 Like
M+ is infinitely spammable, dude.
1 Like
While I patently disagree with this… lol… Offer some solutions then mate, to protect your raid itemization, while not completely castrating other communities. Some suggestions could be:
Keeps M+ engagement to be fresh, without flooding raid. Doesn’t touch raid itemization and allows for fluidity to other game modes without being entirely dominant in all fashions forever.
The funny thing is Versatility gear is BiS for a lot of classes in M+… especially if you don’t want to get smacked for big money in 20+ keys.
Imagine spamming Mythic Plus all week just to have your gear replaced by your first Heroic raid boss drop.
2 Likes
Man I’ve touched on this at least three times this thread lolll
Look, the solution for all of this is weekly lockouts on M+. You can only do each M+ dungeon once per week. Then it will be on par with all the other game’s systems and they can bump the rewards a tiny bit.
Would that make you all happy? It would treat you equally with other players, which is what you keep claiming you want.
1 Like
Again, the time investment to increase that PVP gear, is absolutely ridiculous, when compared to running mythic + or raiding.
1 Like
And? 465 gear is just a place-holder until you get your 475s.
1 Like
Okay, just let me put it out for you so it’s easier to understand, on average characters have 15 slots for gear, 16 if you wear an off-hand, but let’s call it 15. That makes it 14 with a legendary item: now, let’s assume you have 4 friends and run in a closed group. You are running 14’s, because that is the lowest level required to get top drops at the end of dungeon.
15 * 5 = 70 slots of gear required for your group to fully gear
60 / 2 = 35 runs to get 70 drops
Now let’s assume each dungeon will take you around 25 minutes to clear, which is generous.
30 * 25 = 875 minutes (14.5 hours)
Now - add in variance:
- how many times will you get the same slot
- will that item have the right stats
- will one person in the group get drops far more frequently than you, are they the same armor type?
- how often will you get the dungeon you’re after with the drop you’re after, it is completely random
The odds of you being fully 210 are exceptionally slim in a week or two worth of play. Not many people run 30+ dungeons in a week, and 30 is far fewer than you’ll require to get your group fully geared. Dungeons end drops will be relevant for most players for a good chunk of time.
Yeah it’s gonna suck to both be an ilvl (total power potential) + Vers (specific power potential) requirement for you to raid to remain competitive within other content as the tier/season progresses
Did you not inform yourself on the ilvl of Mythic Plus loot and PvP vendors compared to Heroic raids? How dense are you?
If you try to do high level arena in raid gear you’re going to get freakin’ exploded my dude. 40%+ vers is the meta. You’ll need all that vers PvP gear and you’ll need that 2/2 trinket set bonus to not literally die in the RMP opener.
PvPers have been crying for years they want PvP gear to be BiS for PvP. It looks like Shadowlands is their moment. And yet I think they’ll still cry when they realize just how MUCH PvP they’ll have to do, and how hard it’s going to be, to BiS PvP gear now.
Delicious and ironic.
Edit: There may be wonky scenarios where a PvE piece has more Vers/Haste on it or something, or procs a gem slot, and it’s still worn in PvP. But it’s pretty much relegated to Vers/X PvE pieces.
I think some PvPers are going to WISH they could throw 100,000g at a Heroic raid clear at get some of their BiS pieces vs. the months-long grind of ranking up the vendor pieces they’re staring down the barrel of.