Oh I don’t run 15’s? On this druid I haven’t, you don’t know my WoW account or what I play. Go away bro.
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Way to flatten the entire game, and history of the game, as stated previously to a degree down to “it’s always generally been the best, so take your oatmeal and sit down babe”
If you’re going to play the role of historian, the onus should be on you to prove your point, and dig up that for each of the 15 years, gearing has been singularly through Raid sourcing (for the content of PvP and M+, which is not true)
Either way - the past doesn’t dictate the future and growth of everything; and, good decision points (for the health and longevity of the game) should be considered, Always
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This. And I have no idea why players are blaming blizzard for this. Some players have been asking this type of change since m+ was brought in.
They don’t want to be “forced” to do anything but raid log.
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Raiding has always been a PART of gearing. Not the ENTIRE gearing system. There’s literally no other way to get max level gear other than sitting in a raid. The game has never had so little choice in it. In past expansions, PvP mains would often hop in to raid to get a special trinket or weapon that helped their class in PvP for that season, it was never the literal only way that your class could reach max ilvl.
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The 3 item levels aren’t going to make that much of a difference OP - you’ll still end up pretty geared from the vault. The harder part will be the 2 items per dungeon - you can and will go on luck streaks in both directions.
By week 12-15 it was all cache luck for M+ players already. If it even took that long. It’ll be a longer mountain to climb but you’ll get to the peak all the same. The only true difference will be the last two bosses dropping +7, but even that is less of a difference than we have right now. Especially since we won’t have to compete with some classes getting two azerite drops from carapace and n’zoth.
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Please clarify. Are you arguing that Mythic raiding today on live is handing out lower ilvl gear than M+ weekly chest?
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They don’t have to. That has been core to (edit: my) suggestions. Lifting my previous statement for you to consume.
Less common max level rewards = increased player engagement. Haven’t you listened to any of the ATVI conference calls? 
Wow…
I’ve often heard of this phenomenon, but in my 40 years on this planet, I’ve never witnessed it myself…
Literally everything you just said…
Was wrong.
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Yes, this is my concern exactly. We’ve been stuck in this awful loot system for years now, and now they’re even going to make it worse!! How is anyone okay with this lol? I think that the only minor consolation here is that PvP vendors are going to be available, other than that this just made shadowlands way, way worse.
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Okay? Many classic BiS pieces for PvE are from BWL and Naxx. Example… Shadowflame staff. Thunderfury.
The Burning Crusade? Warglaives? Skull of Guldan? The Black Bow of the Betrayer practically invented the Hunter/Priest or Hunter/Druid mana drain 2vs2 meta.
Wrath of the Lich King do you remember people farming Death Bringer’s Will for all your PvP friends? I remember. I remember farming Shadowmourne for my Ret paladin teammate. Weren’t competitive without those.
Cataclysm is self explanatory. Gul’therak sword with tentacles was BiS? Cunning of the Cruel? Legendary daggers? Legendary staff? People could die in cheapshots with PvE gear.
It wasn’t until MoP really started ramping up the resilience and PvP power systems that you started to see literally no PvE gear in PvP and even then most comps ran with heavy PvE influence. I did Turbo Cleave (Enhance/Arms/Rdruid) with half SoO heroic gear and obviously my Fury of Xuen legendary cloak (PvE… btw).
The game’s history is steeped in raiding for trinkets and weapons explicitly to be competitive at the highest levels of PvP. This 8.3 corruption system has been similar. Claw is mandatory for most healers. Where do you think these rogues and DH are getting full gushing wounds from? Arena?
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Welcome back to the convo Whiteknight!
To clarify, the inclusion of the Raid log crowd in the Weekly Chest removes the need to run M+. It already provides a one week opportunity that doesn’t exist in live. This handles the Weekly chest item, and adequately shows it’s a nerf to m+ engagement.
EOD loot now being nerfed as well, further requires M+ players to Raid, just to remain even somewhat competitive as the tier / season progresses; as, Raid loggers get intra-week loot that is (10 ilvls higher if raiding H, or up to 23 ilvls higher if M Raid) significantly more powerful that M+ while also benefiting from the weekly chest, as stated above.
As a returning player I basically ran into this brick wall. No guild would touch me because I was a iLvl 450 priest. I could do heroic raids, but it was going to take a long-time to get gear.
So I discovered the M+ end of the game and realized that I could just keep doing these dungeons. It took me a few weeks, but I went from iLvl 450 to 470, and was doing 15s. As soon as I got iLvl 470 I found guilds were opening doors for me.
M+ is basically the only gear catch-up mechanic ingame because you can’t get that from raids.
They just made doing raids actually guarantee a source of equipment once a week which is a positive change.
I don’t really care that M+ gives a lower iLvl than heroic raids because the whole end goal is to get into 226 gear. It might take a few months just like people are getting 475s from the chest, but at least you have twice the choice of selections.
Yah, sure some items, but not all blanket gearing. That was exactly my point. There was variance in gearing opportunities…
When PvP mattered, and was it’s own gearing path (but could still be highly competitive as a great raider). Holla
By cutting off two other ways to get geared in end game (PvP vendors and Mythic Plus loot drops) it is not increasing the number of players that are engaging in raiding. It now actually just making their sub count smaller, since people that do PvP and Mythic Plus for end game still aren’t going to accept they will now be forced to play content that they don’t want to. They will just find another game, and you raiders are the most selfish for not sticking up for them on their nerfs.
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They literally tripled your odds of getting upgrades compared to what we have now - the actual dungeon drops are/were only good for a few weeks. Them dropping the item level and drop rate actually extends the life of the gearing process. Half of the fun is the upward momentum. Getting that piece you were after.
Besides, too many people who are complaining don’t even run over 15-18’s as it stands. Those of us who are doing mid 20’s keys, and don’t raid, will find a way to do that anyway. I have just as much fun on my alts in low keys as I do in 25’s on my main - it’s perspective and numbers. if I can push my 440 tank to a +16 that’s actually more challenging than playing my main in a 23.
Perspective.
RIO does, and you don’t run 15s.
It removes having a single gearing option completely dominate the other ones.
Because one of those content types has limited availability of rewards and the other has infinite availability. Also it’s only 3ilvls which is like nothing in terms of modern gearing, like 5 rating for both secondary stats?
Probably because it is still by far the best way to gear. It still provides the best gear in the game from the cache guaranteed, which is now easier to acquire because you can get it from a 14 now instead of 15, and with multiple choices shoupd you do the required runs.
Also after week one of heroic raiding a raider may have 3-4 pieces of 213 ilvl gear if they are lucky, whereas a M+ player has the ability to get a full set of 18 x 210 pieces which would lead to a vastly superior overall average ilvl.
Even after that how many people do you expect to be clearing multiple mythic bosses by week 4? Maybe 5% of the playerbase at best?
Meanwhile you will already have full 210 and have received 4 guaranteed 226 items, whilst heroic raiders still will be lucky to have 12 assuming they get different drops and assuming they cleared heroic week 1 (hint, most won’t).
And then on top of all of that raiding has one secondary stat option for each piece of gear except for like 1-2 gear slits per armour which have two options. Meanwhile M+ has 3+ options for every slot guaranteeing you can better itemise your gear.
M+ is going to be well fine.
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Sooo, same as Shadowlands. There are PvP vendors again. PvP gear scales up to i226. It all has versatility on it which has become mandatory for competitive PvP. You’ll want like 40%. You’ll still be likely getting BiS weapons or trinkets (we’ll see about this) from raid though, and you’ll need the highest rank of your legendary (requiring Torghast) and conduits ranks (requiring a LOT of PvE grinding) to play at the highest level.
What’s the problem?
The fact that you can casually do a +10 Mythic dungeon in a PuG every week, which is pretty easy frankly, and get FULL i226 IN A COUPLE MONTHS BY CLICKING A CHEST… that’s like the epitome of “hand-out” and “Welfare gear”. No one is arguing that a M+21 is easier than heroic raiding. It’s not. But let’s not use the challenge = proportional item level argument because the weekly chest chucks that right out of the god damned door.
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Yes, I completely agree with you here. Raid content has always been a part of PvE, but only a part. Some niche item was really OP for your class in PvP and you had to grind it out over a few weeks. That was a lot of fun, and you felt amazing when you got the reward, but you also could get other rewards and get well-geared in PvP without being dependent on those items. You could still get strong in your PvP set and items from vendors and then once those were full you could climb more easily and start getting better rewards from 1800+ arenas or niche items from PvE content. You had the foundation from the vendor where you could be strong and start getting other items to further specialize past the point of proficiency.
Now, you’re seriously only dependent on raid content (or Mythic+ dungeons in BfA), and it’s extremely stupid. It was extremely dumb with 5man runs on the table at the start of BfA. Now in SL it’s literally only raiding where you can get the best gear available, you have no other option but to do this 1 thing. World of Warcraft has always been about choice and freedom of playstyle, and that is what made it special. This dev team turned World of Warcraft in to any shi**y, generic MMO because they lack the creativity and insight that the prior game designers had, and because they’ve built WoW for 1 kind of play style instead of for the many kinds that it’s design supported in the past. Case closed the current dev team is horrible, they need a serious wake up call.