No, it’s been stated that change is due to the removal of coins.
Edit for sauce:
I thought it was 3 raid bosses for a cache option last time I saw
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This is like Blizzard giving the “vendors” people the finger - which, granted, I fully expected, which is why I argued against vendors. What people wanted was vendors that would allow you to save up currency from random battlegrounds and buy mythic raid equivalent gear. These vendors only allow you to buy trash gear.
I’m one of those people who ultimately want gear for PVP - specifically, world PVP and battlegrounds. Here’s what I’m feeling forced to do for PVP gearing:
-
M+. I can potentially get mythic raid quality gear in the vault, and it will certainly be very easy to get heroic raid quality gear there.
-
Raiding. I can do pickup raids and get heroic raid quality gear on a weekly lockout.
Rated PVP isn’t even on the list, because (1) to do rated, you have to use a FOTM spec, and those specs aren’t usually what’s fun in world PVP and battlegrounds, and (2) to do rated, you have to use a very specific play style that depends on very specific 3 person team compositions, and those play styles aren’t very useful in world PVP and battlegrounds.
This is Blizzard giving the finger to the vast majority of the PVP population, yet again. Maybe Blizzard is so clueless about PVP that they don’t even realize what they’re doing, but that’s what they’re doing.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread on M+, but I just couldn’t let the PVP gearing misconceptions pass.
Since bonus rolls were trivial in the first place, the actual loot reductions in raids is probably the more salient factor.
Ah, see that’s the problem. By PvP we mean, of course, Rated PvP. You can’t expect to get i226 gear by running random BGs and ganking questers in The Maw. Shadowlands 100% allows you to BiS gear for PvP THROUGH PvP, which is ultimately what PvPers have been asking for a long time. Naturally, the caveat is through rating.
If you want to gear through dungeons you can get about i160 through Normal dungeons. You can’t complain that you have to push +10s or higher for the “good gear” and can’t get it purely by doing Normals or Heroics with PuGs. “Good gear” is generally walled behind “challenging play” - this is true for most aspects of the game.
You will never be able to get great gear through “world pvp” and “battlegrounds”. I’d loathe to see the day you could.
This is correct.
The Dev decision-making feels like the below
M Raiders = Loot prog path
All else: Push Raid as your main content, for 213~220 gear. Then, side piece (once per week) M+ for weekly chance at same stuff M Raiders see drop nightly.
Exactly as it is now. Both are raider-only focused, with gimmicky sides tossed into other content. Incentivizes content other than raid, for maybe a maximum of 1 hour per week. Disincentivizes content for individuals most-interested in that content, as it is then suggested to drag through raid for loot.
Lastly: Requires raiding in all content, to remain even remotely within striking distance of others, and continuously influences the outcomes of other content based on raiding gear only leaking into that content and dominating over other’s skill (glad v M raiders head hunting in arenas / Q dodging)
you are right… though my point is still kind of the same. Getting the first 3 raid bosses on farm is waaay better than mythic + from a gear stand point. If you happen to get full clears its not close.
When I played mythic plus in legion I loved being able to be one of the best on the server without spending 6-9 hours in raid every week. With this last patch in BFA and going into Shadowlands I’m sad that my skill is no longer good enough. With having a family (and just not really loving it lol) mythic raiding isnt really an option.
Indeed. The PVP system is like if all gear were removed from raiding, and raiders had to get all their gear from M+. That would be great for M+ people but it would kill raiding.
Throughout BFA, we’ve been able to get heroic raid quality gear through world PVP and random battlegrounds. In most expansions, you’ve been able to save currency to buy BIS PVP gear without pushing rating.
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This is a helpful way to simply frame the itemization issues, be it M+ or PvP itemization, for their content of choice.
You’re missing the math on this, however. Being a guaranteed loot instead of a ~40% chance - is a buff to Raid itemization. No mention of boss drop chance nerfs, so we can’t make assumptions here.
I see this as a blanket buff to Raid itemization, that simultaneously reduces engagement in M+; which is fine, if raiders hate m+, I don’t think they should be forced to go that route every week (read: great to not force raiders to dungeoneer).
The problem, is, that buff is a relative nerf as well as the specific nerf to m+. It makes the progression of gearing incredibly more drastic to Raiders, than m+ or PvP. That is an issue, because for the seasons to remain untainted, players in both m+ and PvP are now even moreso behaviorally manipulated into raid content, to be able to stand even within a wide remote striking distance of raid itemization (which will overflow PvP and M+ systems)
Overall, I feel like Mythic+ ilvl should be scaled down at the low end and up at the higher end.
Right now:
- +5 is i194 gear
- +10 is i204 gear
- +15 is i210 gear
I think a better system would be:
- i185 for a +5
- i190 for a +7
- i195 for a +10
- i200 for a +12
- 215 for a +15
- i220 for a +20
- i225 for a +25
- i226 for a +27
- i230 for a +30
That would mean Mythic+ would be 100% competitive with raiding (both Heroic and Mythic) in terms of ilvl and theoretically be much faster because it’s not time-gated once weekly like raids are.
But man would you have to earn it.
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What you could do is cap loot to once per dungeon, and that would make it almost identical to raid.
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There are no assumptions here, Ion is on record saying raids will drop less loot in Shadowlands.
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No no no.
Not cap loot. Cap participation, like Mythic raids. You can only do each dungeon once per week.
Also, put all the dungeons on the same ID so you have to do them with the same people.
If M+ people want equal treatment, give it to them.
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Oh god, the tears would block out the sun.
I know. But they keep screaming that they should be treated just like raiders, so I say let’s do it.
That sounds amazing!
Edit: Need to address loot abundance in some way to not out scale raid, like you have noted.
As with almost any “equality” movement, it’s not about equality. It’s about superiority. They don’t want equal treatment, they want preferential treatment.
If they tuned Mythic+ so hard that guilds had to compete for weeks for World First completion of Mythic Halls of Atonement? Lmao. And you can only do each dungeon ONCE a week. And your GROUP had a raid lockout for each boss killed.
lmao
Jeez man/mam. This is a weird twist. There’s been a lot of mention, at least from myself, of systems and ways to keep raid dominance, and unpenalized - while enhancing other systems… Seems pretty clear I’m not trying to “dominate” or make subserviently some other community…
Yikes!
In principle, that would be nice. In practice, it’s hard to make it work.
I do a Waycrest +3 to help a friend, and get a piece of loot. Now I do a Waycrest +15. Can I still get loot? Is it still random, or is it the same piece I got in the +3?
If I cannot still get loot, then I’m strongly discouraged from helping my friend in the +3. If I still get random loot, I can get around the weekly lockout by doing Waycrest +14, +15, and +16, and fill multiple slots. If I get the same loot at a higher ilvl, I can do a bunch of +3s, then use the loot result to pick the +15s that will give me the gear I want.
A weekly lockout doesn’t work well with the fine increases in difficulty in the M+ system. To make it work you’d have to remove most of the levels and maybe just have +2, +7, and +14. I question whether that would be an attractive system.