So play with friends, there is literally a discord community u can join and find like minded people to time, go for completion or w/e
Penalty? Why learn to play so no one leaves your key. That’s the solution. Game is made for elitists so be elite or quit
I do play with friends…
Is this entire thread some form of self flagellation or penance, then? You hate yourself and your friends, so you wanna make sure you’re all punished for failing a key?
No i want to have a conversation with other like minded adults who enjoy talking about WoW game design.
You should have more experience in the content if you are going to talk about game design.
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People only leave bad groups.
Remove keys entirely. Let people run what level they want when they want. The gate for even attempting 20+ content is laughable and a huge contributing factor to why this game has a severe player retention problem on top of very few people even attempting that level of content. Making people spend potentially hours re-leveling keys and fishing for better keys or failing to get into the small number of 20+ pugs available is just such a horrendously terrible system. It’s not at all surprising so few people bother to participate in it.
If they don’t want people to spam +20 Shadowmoon, fine, change the reward system and structure so you don’t want to do that in the first place, don’t make it nearly impossible to run a +20 SM if you don’t get really lucky and get your own key. 20 SM pugs in the group finder get hundreds of applicants. Why are we making it so hard for people to run it for their vault?
For example, change the vault so instead of 3 max options you have 8, one from each dungeon based on the highest level run of that dungeon for the week. If you want more options, you’ll have to run a variety of dungeons. Also add an end of dungeon drop cap so you can only get at most one drop a week from each dungeon + level range so you can’t just run the same dungeon endlessly until you get the drop you want for 415 upgrades.
I’d also increase the chances of getting tertiary stats and sockets from your vault reward, but that’s another topic.
With these changes people would have no reason to spam the same dungeon endlessly AND could run whatever they want when they want. What an amazing concept in a video game you’re supposed to be playing for fun!
edit: and as it relates to this topic, removing keys entirely means you can make your own group for a completion run or whatever dungeon you want whenever you want and can more easily find people who would be interested in doing that rather than being stuck with elitists who leave after a wipe or rage quit because X wasn’t done perfectly or whatever
No. Let’s not.
No lets. Lets also provide useful ideas and reasons for things and not post useless trash posts with no substance.
Keys deplete for a reason. Keys never depleting will cause a whole new set of issues that I have expressed multiple times in the past.
Yes, a stupid reason. A bad reason. A poor game design choice that isn’t necessary and could easily be improved.
Being an apologist for bad game design and defending it repeatedly doesn’t make you correct. You were wrong the first time you did it and will always be wrong as you continue to do it.
Having no keys + changing the reward system opens up the system and makes it more accessible. It would increase participation and get rid of needlessly wasting people’s time with an asinine key depletion system that sucked from day 1 of Legion.
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If the “real” challenge doesn’t start until 20+, whats the point of 1-19? Clearly, there are a whole bunch of key levels that are effectively pointless. Does the game really need them?
While I’m not suggesting that the key system needs to be removed, it seems to have many unintended consequences.
I’m all for giving players agency and letting players just enter into whatever level they want to attempt.
THat said, this isn’t really the point of the topic.
I think key leavers are an extension of the basic problem with keys in general. Whether someone disconnects and never comes back because of a technical issue, or they rage quit the key is “ruined” and you can’t just run it again. You can’t just start over.
The key system as it exists makes everything worse. People get more angry when someone leaves because they may have wanted to do that dungeon at that level and now they can’t without fishing for a new key or getting a pug with the right key. The people who leave couldn’t make their own group for that dungeon at that level so they may be in a group of people that don’t live up to their standards. If they could simply make their own groups, picky people who leave dungeons a lot would just make their own group with more specific requirements and leave everyone else alone.
People who don’t care about the timers could more easily make for completion groups (which are far less likely to have leavers), which I think don’t happen very often currently because of key scarcity.
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Just because you see the reason as bad or stupid doesn’t make it so. It just shows you are too short sighted to see the added issues keys never depleting will add.
I don’t understand GDs fixation on all or nothing thinking. It has been argued many times for keys to have 2 or 3 charges, but apparently that’s not enough.
I agree that this is a major flaw in the design. It takes agency away from a player in making decision, which in my opinion is always bad game design mojo.
Blizzard does have it reasons, however, for making Mythic+ attempts an artificially scarce commodity. The meta game for Mythic+ is this negotiation between players for key runs. Additionally, it creates this artificial necessity to “progress” a key, rather than just the content itself.
If there were no keys, many players would skip that altogether, jumping right in to the highest possible Mythic+ level, and brute force grind it for completion and the rewards.
There may also be some lessons learned from Challenge Modes which I’m not privy to since I didn’t engage with those speed run dungeons myself.
I think the biggest flaw of Mythic+ is that while blizzard obviously intended these dungeons to be a multi-use experience for players, it’s painfully clear that the Speed Run component is the one that was recognized by the players that cared as the de facto “elite” content. This happened at the expense of any other kind of 5 man experience.
MegaDungeons are the only true alternative to the 5 man dungeon experience that blizzard has offered up to player. And this is pretty much what the rest of us who want that 5 man raid like experience, but there has only been one of them per expansion and even more annoyingly, it is often a limited run experience, with it only being released halfway through the expansion, and with it being turned in a mythic+ run a patch later.
Mythic+ and MegaDungeon players need their own progression paths. They need to be considered different demographics… but I’ll save that discussion for another topic.
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Lol no.
This whole “everyone needs a progression path” because they don’t like the game as designed need to get over it.
If you want to progress you have option
X
Y
Z
If you don’t like those options then that’s on you.
Could you imagine today someone going up to a quest giver and being like “I don’t want to kill those demons. It’s too hard let me kill boars instead” and actually expecting the npc to change the quest 
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You mean like how the game originally wasn’t designed around having mythic+ until people cried for more 5 man content, and now every dungeon is specifically designed with Mythic+ in mind?
Good, then lets get rid of the speed run all together and go back to the old dungeon design.
What? OH it’s not okay when it’s YOUR content that nobody wants.
