remember the horror of season 1 shadowlands and the kite meta?
they made the mobs hit HARD and be truly dangerous to the tank in an attempt to slow us down.
it didn’t work, what ended up happening was a season that felt like crap and wasn’t fun unless you were a tank with excellent kiting abilities/skills.
this requirement was what got me to play VDH to begin with. jump in; jump out. grab aggro; run way. rinse;repeat.
you’re so delusional it legitimately hurts - this might actually be the worst take on wow of all time
there is nothing in older content that even remotely, distantly, even in your dreams, comes close to the difficulty and execution required nowadays - any single pack in any M+ has more mechanics than every single piece of content since vanilla to cata combined - the skill delta in wow is so large, science is still working out how to visualize gaps this large
you mean to tell us that: sheep 1 mob and frost trap the other and then at most use 4 buttons was the PEAK of gameplay? you really wanna tell us that small pulls with at most 3 mechanics required more coordination and skill than nowadays? if you’re doing 8+s everything will oneshot and kill you, i don’t think i’ve seen deathless keys outside of MDI
you just think it’s easier because people are actually dealing with stuff instead of being brainless bots that will die to ground AOEs ticking for 2% of health per second, if you wiped to older dungeons so much had to go wrong it wouldn’t fit in here or they were just dogwater mechanics (still an issue sometimes, more so in raids)
the game literally only got “more”, more CC, more interrupts, more buttons to do damage, more skill interactions - it is OBJECTIVELY more difficult, go do a dungeon and see how far you get without using tons of CC and interrupts at all - unless you’re running VDH, you need to preassign/WA assign kicks and stops for every pack at REAL keys, infinitely dwarfing everything pre-bfa - many people are just carrying MORE than their weight making it seem easier
Wouldn’t just that turn into degen gameplay to wait for all cds and lust at some point? The timer isn’t there just to make you fast in and of itself, like you said, the mentality of go go predates m+ by a lot. It’s to make sure you are ready for the next step.
M+ was an answer to an already dying raiding scene and a desire from people to have dungeons be a proper end-game pillar.
This idea that people who aren’t interested in raiding would suddenly be because M+ didn’t exist is funny. Most people I play with, they already quit the game with M+ isn’t fun even if the raids are, if M+ didn’t exist at all? Well we’d have all fully called it quits after MoP when they left those of us that were only really interested in small group raiding out to dry
Class design is massively different as well, it’s not one to one.
Classes have SO much more control, CC, burst aoe, defensives, offensive cooldowns, etc. it isn’t the same as it was and that needs to be considered in any changes.
tl;dr: OP is a salty raid logger 
.
Get yer 8 done, OP! Stop letting your raid team down.
It just isn’t. The dude who has done every key on 16 a dozen times each and the dude who paid for 4 other people to do every key at 16 have the exact same score.
true. the onus falls on the group maker to weed out the obvious buyers.
if I see someone has every key at X done, and little else, I’m going to assume they were a buyer and not invite them. same as if I see someone has every key at X done but nothing lower, or a lack of untimed keys.
maybe it sucks that the burden is on us to weed them out, but short of building some extremely complicated system, I’m not sure how else they would handle it.
Although you’re not wrong, I would argue the VAST majority (ALL???) of people who pay for Keys, get what they want… and then peace out.
They don’t continue to run Keys. They don’t care. That’s why they paid for carries in the first place.
If they were just going to “run Keys” … they would have done that without paying for them. lol
But the people that pay for carries, get their KSM/KSH … and then stop.
So yeah, they have the same score as me. But they aren’t applying to NEW groups, like me.
First off, Chill. You can have conversations without being rude if you try. No need to start with calling people dumb or whatever.
I never said it was easier. It is speed based now. It used to be communication and planning based. CC’s were needed before single pack pulls or you would die. Now each pack is easier, but the system is setup to pull multiple packs, or pull and down them as fast as possible. So it pushes speed which changed the game massively.
Difficulty is harder to compare but…Rag took 154 days before first kill…Raszageth was 11. A lot of that is due to skill of players and much more info easily shared, but the idea that the game is harder now seems to be more about having more tiers than about the general gameplay.
Totally agree on class design, but as I said 7 expansions to dig into the hole, gonna take a lot of things to work out of it.
What’s killing raising is massive 9+ boss marathons. People just don’t have the scheduling power to dedicate time slots to go in a raid for 3 hours anymore. But hey. It’s a lazy Sunday, grab 4 more people and spend 30 minutes doing a m+. Just a massive gap in convenience factors.
I can’t comment on PvP as if I wanted to PvP I’d find something on steam not play an mmorpg.
I missed where you could get myth track gear from M+, save for the vault. One random myth piece a week doesn’t seem like a big deal, especially because 90% of trinkets from the dungeon pool suck.
Absolutely agree, I was just saying that rio is a superior tool to the default UI because it allows us to track that kind of information and decline applications like that.
Greatest moment in WoW history.
I suppose you mean bullions? In which case they’re only there during s4.
So getting raid gear as a solo player is going to get you back into raiding? 
How in the hell do you make the leap to PvP?
there’s a lot to be said for the accuracy of this.
I don’t want raiding changed, necessarily, but as someone responsible for a 20 man mythic raid for the past 10 years of my life, I know for a fact that far more just in administration goes into maintaining a raid than running keys.
Clearly you don’t PvP