Mythic+ has probably damaged WoW worse than anything ever added

[Volley-khadgar (Volley)]

Mythic Plus offering higher rewards than Heroic Raiding is the first mistake, and it needs to be resolved.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

@Sentenzå-sargeras

@Argorwal-ysera

Almost every mythic+ to raiding comparison is always to heroic raiding, not mythic, I wonder why?

I’ve said I want M+ to be harder. Raiders don’t though. Raiders always seem to just want to make M+ gear worse. This is where the constant N+ / Raider friction arises. Raiders just want their gear to be best and not need to M+ at all which would be fine if they aren’t trying to gut M+. And yet M+ players don’t want to gut raids, they just want M+ gear to be the best gear in M+

Putting all mythic+ players into a single bucket and all raiders into a single bucket isn’t something I can get behind.

Plenty of suggestions are to use the PvP approach of up scaling in their respective content to make mythic+ gear best in keys and raid gear best in raids.

Personally I think the cross over is good for the game, but the difficulties need to have much better parity.

[Adaia-moon-guard]

No, the biggest damage Warcraft has ever suffered was Burning Crusade’s story.

It fundamentally screwed everything in the Warcraft universe beyond repair.

[Kaledin-uther]

No worries.

As I said the shift happened with LFR/LFG, not Mythic. You could not do massive multi aoe pulls prior to the end of Lich King. Many dungeons had must sap pulls.

That said I do think Mythic just piled on to a problem that was already rolling. The issues was LFR/LFG wasn’t done with an increase in communication tools so you had to massively dumb down the content. That increased the possibility for cheese pulls. That made runs faster and faster and more about efficient leveling, gearing, or making money.

Then they said, “well that is how people are playing so let’s give them fancier loot and a timer!”. So it just got worse and worse.

I think it would be real interesting if Mythic was tuned to play like old school actually. No timer, just a death counter. Make it hard, and bring cc’s back into the game. I get that people like the speed thing now, but it is definitely not what WoW was in the beginning.

[Sarcasm-anvilmar]

Worse than frogs?

[Brocknor-hellscream (Brocknor)]

@Annastasi-proudmoore

I don’t think it would have survived the test of time.

I would say it’s more accurate to say: It would have survived … just with a smaller audience.

I greatly prefer the slower, more meticulous style of making a plan and then executing that plan. I guess the analogy would be I would rather play a turned based game than an RTS.

And while I realize I’m in a minority there, that’s not to say I’m the ONLY one that feels that way.

Because I could compare these two playstyles to what we see in M+ now.

Compare the n00bs in M1-3 with the people that were like “Which do we sheep? What’s sap? DUDE OMG YOUR AoE BROKE THE CC!!!”

To the guild groups I was running where you didn’t even have to mark anything. The Mage knew what to sheep, the Rogue need what to Sap. The Tank knew to pull the rest out of range so we could AoE as necessary.

If I REALLY wanted to push this argument, I would say the real problem is that casters are ridiculously OP in this game. Even on AoE packs, interrupts are what make or break runs. That was what got CCd back in the day, it’s no different now.

I dunno… I think getting a 10 ton Axe dropped on my head is just as dangerous as a Spell. And yet, it’s rare we give a damn about melee. The danger is ALWAYS casters. I’m a little tired of that.

[Vladrik-stormrage]

@Delfaux-wyrmrest-accord

Mythic+ also being the premier end game pushes new player away, let’s say you join late in the season. No one is going to invite these new players to mythic+

This where you really put a spotlight on your own ignorance about m+. Its incredibly accessible and easy to get into. That’s one of the main reasons its so popular; its incredibly easy to jump into.

[Caprisunny-moon-guard]

its when i stand on the mushroom my camera gives me grief though

[Khosumi-illidan]

Maybe people simply enjoy m+ more. Being reluctant to do something, only to have something more fun, doesnt mean the game is damaged, but more favoring to what people desire.

[Kaledin-uther]

I generally agreed, but I think that happened because of LFR/LFG put general downward pressure on difficulty. Instead of coming up with new mechanics for cc, and resource management they just yanking it all.

General dumbing down, that allowed speed, speed became addicting, speed addiction spawned Mythic. Resource management was definitely part of the dumbing down for sure.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

@Kaledin-uther

No worries.

As I said the shift happened with LFR/LFG, not Mythic. You could not do massive multi aoe pulls prior to the end of Lich King. Many dungeons had must sap pulls.

That said I do think Mythic just piled on to a problem that was already rolling. The issues was LFR/LFG wasn’t done with an increase in communication tools so you had to massively dumb down the content. That increased the possibility for cheese pulls. That made runs faster and faster and more about efficient leveling, gearing, or making money.

Then they said, “well that is how people are playing so let’s give them fancier loot and a timer!”. So it just got worse and worse.

I think it would be real interesting if Mythic was tuned to play like old school actually. No timer, just a death counter. Make it hard, and bring cc’s back into the game. I get that people like the speed thing now, but it is definitely not what WoW was in the beginning

Player toolkit plays a large role in this as well.

Try and think about what it would take for a 4 mob trash pack to “require” hard CC on 1-2 mobs.

Extremely lethal auto attack damage on the tank? What about when the tank is cycling defensive? Even through that? Then how can even 1 mob be survivable?

Constant high lethality casts?

A weird aura buff that makes mobs around it deal 3728383% more damage?

Massive gutting of tank aoe threat where it’s hard to control 4 mobs at a time?

It’s a nuanced problem.

[Annastasi-proudmoore]

@Argorwal-ysera

It’s a nuanced problem.

another aspect of it is we are far better players now than we were 20 years ago.

we don’t need to hard cc the caster while we deal with everything else, because over time we’ve developed the skills to cc it on the fly as it tries to cast.

not sure that’s something that can be undone

[Brocknor-hellscream (Brocknor)]

@Annastasi-proudmoore

we’ve developed the skills to cc it on the fly as it tries to cast.

If it insta-casts … then you have to CC it.

There’s always an answer…

[Lötö-stormrage]

When I first started playing WoW, it was like moving into a brand new neighbourhood and Mythic+ was the HOA.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

@Annastasi-proudmoore

@Argorwal-ysera

It’s a nuanced problem.

another aspect of it is we are far better players now than we were 20 years ago.

we don’t need to hard cc the caster while we deal with everything else, because over time we’ve developed the skills to cc it on the fly as it tries to cast.

not sure that’s something that can be undone.

This is part of it for sure along with the toolkit.

There are SO many interrupts, stuns, disorients, grips, and so many AOE versions as well locking down mobs is trivial (and this isn’t just about VDH).

In older versions of the game stops were minimal, almost all single target, with longer cool downs. And interrupts used to be on the global cooldown.

[Lucrend-stormrage]

Well you’re wrong.

[Kaledin-uther]

You mean…how we played in the first two expansions? I mean I don’t need to imagine it, it was a thing. That is how we played. I don’t think you can do that in lfr/lfg but in a mythic I think it would be doable…because before mythics were a thing that was literally how we played.

There was one dungeon in Burning Crusade I remember where you had to two cc on about half the pulls or the tank would almost always die. It was hard, but people learned how to do it. We have now replaced that with rotations, macros, and speed as the challenge, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t and isn’t doable.

It’s a problem that was created over 7 expansions so it won’t be fast and easy to shift back, but it really did play like that at one point.

[Opalunaiya-bleeding-hollow]

@Grimmantle-thrall

The Blizzard launcher should include a community showcase that highlights such groups.

Seriously, why would they do that? This game is all about not giving help to people who don’t deserve help. Let them figure everything out all by themselves with no help from anyone, just like those who believe this is the One True Way To Learn To Play WoW™ like to think they did, even though they had lots of help.

[Haugsp-sargeras]

GD’s only place you get takes this cooked

[Merpish-area-52]

@Brocknor-hellscream

If it insta-casts … then you have to CC it.

People would just cycle defensives and optimize dps cooldowns on dangerous packs.

What’s really important to highlight here though, is that there is nothing that Blizzard can realistically do to bring back slow and methodical gameplay, because slower gameplay was largely a product of a time when computer hardware, player skill, player knowledge, and even internet connectivity were just…worse. You had to CC most of the mobs in a pack because 4/5 of your players were playing with single digit FPS on incredibly slow internet.

Every time they have tried to do that in Retail, players get really grumpy. This happened in BFA when they moved lots of buttons that were off the GCD back onto the GCD. This slowed the game down, but it also just made it feel worse to play.

Nearly all of those changes have been reverted. The fact of the matter is that if someone is looking for slower gamplay, they will not be able to find it in Retail.