You’re doing the usual M+ player REEE when people argue about your loot. But if you actually wiped the tears of rage from your eyes, you’d realise what I’m saying is that difficulty and effort should equal reward, and at the moment M+ is too good comparatively.
ie, at the very least it needs to stop awarding vault slots for failing to time a run.
Personally what I think affected raiding is the raiding itself. They are increasingly made to be unnecessarily overcomplicated. I am not asking for brain-dead simple like classic raiding but mannnn…Raz fight requires the mental agility, spatial awareness, finger-eye coordination, hearing perfection of a yet to be discovered super organism. And we need at least ten of those in a raid.
Yeah, this is absolutely not what you’re saying.
“I don’t like mythic+ therefore neither should anybody else” is the vibe I’m getting it.
There is some truth to this. I don’t really have an issue with raiding being complex and difficult - but by doing this while offering a far easier and more lucrative gearing method (ie M+) it kills the motivation to farm the raids when you can just get better for less effort by doing m+.
Like, who even cares about rekilling raz once you’ve killed her once now?
False. Difficulty wise, clearing heroic VOTI in a guild once a week is incredibly easy compared to pugging to full 415 in M+.
I’m not here for the faux outrage/goofy comments like “tears of rage”. I’ve done both. It’s much easier to gear to a high-median in VOTI than it is in M+. M+ just allows player agency to do it on their terms, on their time, and prioritize what they want to provided they’re willing to spend the time to do it.
You’re not saying that, though. You’re saying that “well, some guilds don’t want to do mythic raiding they like heroic raiding or don’t have 20 people” - which is fine. But you can’t set self-imposed restrictions on one side but not the other. That’s unfair, unequal, and bias.
More over, I’ll say that nearly every time I have a full heroic geared person invited to a +20 key they’re there for a weekly box and are easily our worst person/wiping/no idea how to do the zone or mechanics/etc.
I mean, that’s not what I think at all but I can’t really help that. My thread that’s still kicking around from 2018 sums up my feelings (read the key bit where I say I don’t want it removed, most people miss that in their REEEE fit): https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/bring-back-5mans/56639
If they kill M+ this game is toast. M+ is the only thing propping the game up anymore. Raiding as a whole has been dying for a long time. Gen Z does not care about raiding. Older people who are moving on with their lives are propping raiding up. Gen Z cares a lot more about grab-and-go gaming and activities. It’s a huge reason why mobile gaming is obliterating everything else right now.
They can appeal to raiders at their own peril.
idk I’d argue they’re the same. 16s are not hard, nor is heroic raid.
if you’re conflating 16s to mythic raid, i’d suggest to pick your pugs more wisely.
yep, and they’re not that dumb. they know m+ is wildly popular
they can - and should - appeal to both groups.
You keep saying that, but it’s simply not true in my experience. Nearly every tier since M+ has been out, 3/4 of our raid (the ones who do m+ including myself because I don’t want to handicap us) are substantially ahead of the remainder of the raid in ilvl. Initially due to end of run chest loot, and then as the season goes on due to far better items from the vault.
You know what I did at the start of VOTI to get my ilvl (and dps) up? Spam M+ for drops.
It really isn’t. High end M+ is under rewarding. Raiders should have tearstained cheeks because high end M+ players should have BIS loot better than what Mythic raiders who aren’t CE have, except they don’t. There is no eranog ring, hunter bow, 424, etc from M+ to make raiders jealous.
I’d have thought it’s the opposite. Older people don’t usually have time to revolve their real life responsibilities to commit to a raiding schedule.
Louder for the alts in the BACK.
WoW raiding is outdated, same exact system for 15 years, they need to spice up raiding in order to bring back that appeal we all used to get hyped about.
M+ is just so easily accessible and just more time friendly, overall its just a very good feature, which highlights the flaws of WoW raiding imo.
Being honest, until you get raiders threatening to quit because Mythic + players have their BIS and they don’t, and I mean not just one good trinket and plate pants, I mean multiple pieces of BIS, your complaint is invalid.
I dont care about high end M+ getting the same as mythic raz loot. If you can time a key that’s hard enough to be comparable (25? something over 20 anyway) then you can have all the exclusive loot you like. Give M+ their own super special rings and trinkets that only drop at that level. Don’t mind at all.
My issue is how M+ affects loot in the mid tier, by being too easy and good relatively.
I understand, but to that I say this.
If it’s so easy why are people failing so much?
It’s so easy, there’s damn near 50 threads talking about “time to remove m+”…
It clearly isn’t easy.
Let people have their loot that they worked for lol.
This is being addressed somewhat in the next patch anyways. Heroic raid gear will upgrade to the same level as EOD gear from M+.
I honestly couldn’t really be bothered with that. I just want M+ to have top end rewards worth striving for. 10.0 mostly nailed it on that front, with some minor exceptions that can be overlooked.
I’m referencing this to the guy who is saying they’re voluntarily not clearing mythic raiding. Context matters. So does the rest of what I said: +16’s will give you equal gear to VOTI Heroic, but not enough to upgrade to 415 because +16’s wont give 2400. +23’s are harder than any mythic boss in VOTI atm. Rasz mythic requires 60k hps. Hyrja +21 requires 170k hps sustained.
You kinda read one line, replied to it, and didn’t read the rest. 
So… the people investing more time into the game are advanced in ilvl over the people who are voluntarily not? Here’s a suggestion: Cut the people who can’t be bothered making themselves ready for raiding. M+ allows you to target your weak pieces, grind to upgrade, and advance. I already said this. VOTI is a shotgun of gear. M+ fills in the gaps.
Know what I did at the start of VOTI? Grinded 2.2k RSS so I could get upgrades for free well beyond anyone was getting via M+ or normal VOTI for filler pieces to do heroic/mythic with.
The best part? Still provides more genuine discussion than the average thread on these forums 
Completely disagree… Raid. M+, and PvP are Blizzard’s defined end-game pillars of content and the rewards from each distinct path should be on par with each other. There should be no “pinnacle” among these 3 pillars, each should offer a different choice to get to equivalent end-game gear levels.
M+, with its current valor system allowing a +2 1/13 drop to be fully upgraded to 13/13 is imbalanced, resulting in M+ gearing being easier than Raid. However, Blizz has already addressed that issue with the new gearing upgrade system in 10.1 and with those “very rare” and very powerful items that only drop from Raid (although I think they should be same drop rate as other Raid loot; unusually low drop rates just exacerbate the already bad feel of RNG loot).
They still need to fix: 1) Loot options and 2) improve class/spec balance. Group Loot should be removed across the board. Add the option for Master Loot for 100% guild groups. Otherwise it’s Personal Loot. Throughput should be +/- 2.5% among all classes/specs, with utility being the only significant difference among them. The gap between best & worst should be <5%, so players don’t feel they have to play FOTM to increase their chance of getting invited to M+ or holding their Raid spot.
As i said, its supposed to go off bosses you beat so the ilvl should match the 2 you beat. idk why its going up to 424 of the normal boss being defeated… which is why i thought it was bug.