My thoughts on M+ and how it affects / has affected the game

Community General Discussion
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  1. It was intended to make dungeons more challenging with timers and better rewards but it has become a repetitive cycle where players constantly chase higher keys and higher score. I think this focus to repeatedly running the same dungeons is strongly reducing the game’s overall variety and exploration feel.

  2. Timed dungeons create high pressure, where a single mistake can ruin the entire run and this pressure often leads to emotional outbursts, blame-shifting, and a toxic atmosphere, especially considering that many players spend more time looking / forming a group than actually in the dungeons. In essence, fun and camaraderie are replaced by anxiety and resentment. Exceptions prove the rule.

  3. Everything is about the competitive aspect these days. I mean, you can say all you want that “noone is forcing you to play this class or this build” but this is a social game and peer pressure is a thing

  4. Mythic+ becoming the pillar of endgame that it is has taken resources from creating new and immersive RPG content. Development efforts go into refining dungeons and their endless grind, making the game feel smaller and more repetitive.

  5. M+ mode has shifted the focus of World of Warcraft, leading to a homogenization of gameplay and class roles. Builder-spender, mobility creep, almost everyone having 3 defensives and demanding to have all the tools for every situation etc. Where is the RPG?Classes are now balanced around their performance in these timed runs, which diminishes their unique traits and lore-based abilities and this trend flattens the game’s diversity, reducing classes to similar tools for completing dungeons quickly, rather than stressing their distinct identity and playstyle.

  6. The emphasis on Mythic dungeon mode leads developers to prioritize balance and mechanics for these dungeons over innovative and immersive content. Quests, lore, and world-building that don’t fit the Mythic+ framework often get side-lined, resulting in underdeveloped or ignored RPG potential. This focus shift means the game is losing its sense of adventure and discovery, which are central to a great RPG experience. The world becomes a backdrop for timed challenges rather than a place to explore and enjoy, undermining Blizzard’s strength in storytelling and atmosphere.

  7. The joy of gradually growing stronger through various in-game activities is replaced by a repetitive gear-grinding routine that feels incredibly curated with the upgrade system now. The broader sense of growth and achievement from exploring different aspects of the game is diminished.

  8. Mythics dominance is leading World of Warcraft to be defined by a single content type. This narrow focus limits th room for creative risks and rich storytelling, which are key to making an RPG epic. Azeroth should offer epic tales and diverse gameplay experiences, not just a series of timed trials.

I realize that Mythic+ is here to stay but I just wanted to express my thoughts and I hope it will help spark a discussion. I know there are probably segments in the post that someone could short-quote and have their “gotcha!” moment but I hope the overall point I am making is clear.

Thank you!

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Which is exactly what this is:

That’s how you get a higher challenge and reward…

Then stop running with pugs. Get some friends, a community, WoW Made Easy, etc.

That’s literally what M+ was for…

Can you show me a source for this?

Classes were also once balanced around the highest level of raiding.

I’m not sure what “RPG” has to do with that.

Source for this, considering there are different teams for each of these?

So back in the day it was normal dungeons > Heroic dungeons > raids.

So where’s the variation there?

Since when? They just added Delves, raids still exist, open world has received better rewards and more content, they added follower dungeons, etc.

There is no “gotcha.” Just a “where are you getting this info from?” and not understanding what you want M+ to be.

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Thank you for your response. I would however appreciate if you replied to me in full and did not approach my post with the intent of dismantling some isolated segments. If I reply to you back in a similar way then we are fast going towards a different trajectory entirely than what I intended.

This post was entitled “my thoughts” by the way.

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I did reply to you in full. Quotes are used to speak on the different areas that I… well… quoted.

That’s how replies in a forum environment with quoting works.

But if you’re just going to nitpick format, then there’s no discussion to be had here. Have a nice night.

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Yes, I saw that a bit later. My apologies. I will reply to your points of critique now.

a) My concern isn’t about the existence of the challenge but about the repetitive nature of this design. While increasing difficulty and rewards is intended, it narrows the gameplay loop, making the experience feel more monotonous over time, especially for those who miss the broader RPG elements.

b) and while running with a group of friends or a tight-knit community can reduce the stress, not everyone has that luxury. Pugging is a common way to experience content for many players. The point isn’t that every group is toxic, but that the structure of Mythic+ fosters high-stakes environments where frustration can easily lead to negative interactions, especially in more casual groups.

c) and yes absolutely, M+ was was designed with competition in mind. However, the concern is about how this focus on competition has started to overshadow other aspects of the game, like narrative-driven content or experiences that are traditionally part of an RPG.

d) regarding balance, balancing classes around specific content isn’t new, but the concern is that Mythic+ pushes for a very narrow type of balance which is efficiency in timed runs, which can strip away some of the unique qualities and flavor that make each class feel distinct in an RPG setting. Raiding also requires balance, but it traditionally allowed for more varied roles and styles of play, contributing to the game’s how rich it felt.

e) even with separate teams, the overall direction of development can be influenced by what content is prioritized. While I can’t provide a specific source, the observation is that Mythic+ mechanics seem to receive more frequent updates and adjustments compared to new, story-driven content, which can feel less developed or innovative over time.

f) You make a fair point that the progression path in WoW has always involved some form of gear grind. But the difference is in the variety of content and experiences that were once involved in that progression. The current emphasis on Mythic+ as a primary gear source feels more repetitive, with less variety in the content being run to achieve that progression.

g) Again, I acknowledge that Mythic+ is a well-designed challenge that many players enjoy, including myself. My concern is about balance and ensuring that while Mythic+ thrives, the broader elements that make WoW a rich RPG don’t get left behind. My hope is for a more balanced approach that keeps the game diverse and engaging for all types of players.

(Sorry I do not know how to quote like you did but I went in order)

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Probably shouldnt post on a level 10 if you want people to take you seriously.

Your post comes across as a complaint party when I doubt you even partake in the content.

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What “broader RPG elements?” Can you elaborate more on this? I’m unsure what you’re speaking of.

WoW Made Easy and other communities exost for better pug experience. It doesn’t have to be just friends or guilds. I’d suggest checking out WME as it’s a good way to find a more positive experience for what you’re trying to achieve in different levels of keys and whatnot.

So a trilogy of expansions that are story driven are suddenly not? I’m not following you here. I think I need more information.

What was stripped away? You’re being awfully vague in these RPG comments.

And yet I’ve seen no evidence of this. I see content for every facet of gameplay. Is there something specific you feel is missing?

Not really. Like I said, it was Normal dungeons > Heroic dungeons > Raids

Now it’s Normal dungeons/follower dungeons/WQs > Heroic dungeons/open world events > Mythic dungeons/delves > M+/4 different levels of raids

Balance in the highest level of content is always going to be a thing, because the lowest level doesn’t see that type of nuance to require that balance.

And I’m still lost on what RPG elements are being left behind. Can you elaborate more on that?

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New forum user. Probably just got tossed onto a random character and has no idea how to swap. They don’t even know how quoting works here, that’s how new they are. Can’t fault them for forum design.

:point_down:

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I found out that I can post on the US forums with a starter account and the traffic here is much greater.

But yes I am a forum newbie. This should not detract from my thoughts though. The content is more important than who says them, no?

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You being a forum newbie is the only thing keeping you from having your ideas ripped apart.

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We are already heading towards derailment and I do not wish that, sorry. Replying to Sendryn now at the moment.

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Play nice, Snoz. Even I asked questions politely. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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See my post asking some questions and let’s see if we can get to the root of your issues: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/my-thoughts-on-m-and-how-it-affects-has-affected-the-game/1915559/7

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– When I mention broader RPG elements, I’m referring to aspects like deep character customization, exploration, and narrative immersion. Or even spells that do not fit with the M+ mindset. These elements used to play a more significant role in WoW, with quests that required exploration and choices that felt meaningful. Now, with the focus on timed, repetitive content like Mythic+, those experiences seem to have taken a backseat, making the game feel less like an open-world RPG and more like a competitive, dungeon-focused experience.

– I’m aware of communities like WoW Made Easy. But not all players are comfortable joining these groups or might not have the time to engage with them fully. My point is that the inherent pressure of Mythic+ can still create a stressful environment, especially for those who primarily use traditional pugs. It’s great that there are alternatives, but the design of Mythic+ itself can contribute to a less welcoming atmosphere for “casual” players.

– It’s not that the expansions aren’t story-driven, but rather that the focus on Mythic+ and similar content seems to have shifted the player base’s engagement away from the narrative. While the story is still there, the constant push for higher keys and better gear often leaves little room for players to immerse themselves in the lore. The game feels more like a series of challenges to be beaten than a world to be explored, which in my opinion dilutes the traditional RPG experience. A point could be made that RPGs have evolved or changed though, which I would have to accept.

– What I am referring to in my RPG comments is the way classes are being balanced for efficiency in Mythic+ content. For example, certain utility spells or abilities that were once unique to specific classes might be nerfed or reworked to fit into the Mythic+ meta. This can make classes feel less distinct and more like different flavors of the same ice-cream, instead of some class being like chocolate, some like biscuits etc :smiley: The RPG element of distinct class identities gets diluted when everything is balanced for a specific type of content.

– You’re right that content is being developed across various facets of the game. However, my concern is that the quality and depth of narrative and exploratory content may suffer due to heavy emphasis on Mythic+ and competitive balance. For example, storylines that once spanned multiple quests or zones might now feel more rushed or less impactful. I’m not saying these elements are absent, but their depth and significance seem to be less prioritized.

– I see your point, and there is technically more variety in terms of content types. However, the loop still feels narrower because much of the focus is on Mythic+ as the primary means of progression. While there are other activities, they often feel secondary or less rewarding compared to Mythic+. Which is not actually my biggest gripe with it personally, but in a general sense because it causes a huge number of players to flock to that type of content. The variety I’m referring to is more about the type of engagement: immersive storytelling, complex questlines, and exploration, that seems to have been overshadowed by the chase for higher keys and better gear.

– I also agree that balance at high levels of content is crucial. Still though, my concern is that this focus on balance for high-level Mythic+ has led to a homogenization of classes and gameplay, where the nuances that made each class feel unique are lost. The RPG elements I’m referring to include things like deep character development, unique class mechanics, and immersive world-building and unique cast animations and spell variety. When everything is tuned for efficiency in a specific content type, those aspects can get watered down, making the game feel less like a diverse RPG and more like a competitive grind.

Thank you for a nice conversation so far.

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Bear with me as I piece this in small bits, because my Long COVID brain has to do this now in order to be able to get out my thoughts.

I can’t really agree that customization and the like is taking a backseat due to M+, as there’s nothing different except some affixes and these aren’t new dungeons and those teams are separate.

I’m not sure what exploration is suddenly missing, tbh. And we even have to discover Delves entrances.

Narrative immersion? That sounds pretty subjective. Some will like the story, others won’t. I feel the cinematic nature and the campaigns add that depth.

We have an entire talent system and new talents to work with. Pick what you want and have fun! Loadouts exist to do just this.

We still have those. Unless secret finding, treasure maps, etc don’t count? I may be missing something.

There has never once been any meaningful choice in this game that was narrative based.

And Covenants were a horrible way to play and be cornered for gameplay.

I would never ever want to go back to that.

Except that’s not how WME works. I’d suggest looking into further into it.

Everyone plays for their own reasons, though. Some still play for story. Others only care about end game. That’s how it’s always been. We all have more choices now. But the gaming world is also evolving. So there has to be adaptation to that to some extent. Having so many different ways to play is why this game still exists.

I disagree. I don’t need to participate in end game unless I personally feel like it. I spent most of my time on the ground exploring the first time I quested through DF because I felt like it. And I still poke around at out of the way places with dragonriding. To me, there’s still a big world to explore. I don’t live in instances.

Such as? I’m curious how these few spells or changes ruin the rest of the content or your talent trees with so many loadouts. I’m also not sure what has been changed to be like this.

My Fury Warrior doesn’t feel anything like my Devoker. My Resto Shaman doesn’t feel anything like my Mistweaver Monk.

I don’t think I can agree here.

Hold up.

Now we’re getting somewhere.

It sounds like your problem is the ladder and not the content itself?

Open world is exactly where it should be and Delves add a layer for higher rewards.

I think it’s a good balance, personally.

I’m doing my best! :smiley:

But it is also bedtime and I must away. Night night! :two_hearts:

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= Once again, I get where you’re coming from, but my concern is more about how class design and balance are increasingly shaped by the need to perform in Mythic+ content. Even if the teams are separate, the focus on making sure classes fit well within this content type can lead to homogenization, where the unique aspects of classes are minimized in favor of making them viable in this specific environment. This might not be immediately apparent in terms of customization options, but it does impact how classes are played and experienced.

= You’re right that exploration still exists, but the way the game is structured now tends to guide players toward the most efficient paths, often leading to content being skipped or rushed. While discovering Delves or finding hidden treasures is great, these elements feel less integral to the overall experience when the primary focus is on completing dungeons quickly and efficiently. It’s not that exploration is gone, but it feels less central to the experience. It feels like an afterthought.

= Narrative immersion is indeed subjective, but what I’m pointing out is that the emphasis on high-pressure content like Mythic+ can detract from the time and attention players might otherwise give to the story. The cinematic campaigns are absolutely immersive, but when the game encourages players to focus on repeating the same dungeons for rewards, it can detract from the slower, more thoughtful engagement with the narrative that traditional RPGs excel at. And when the engagement metrics are high in that type of content, there is less incentive to also break the habit in the development rooms.

= The new talent system and loadouts are great for flexibility, but the underlying issue is that talents and abilities are often tuned with Mythic+ viability in mind. This can lead to situations where certain spells or abilities are de-emphasized or reworked not because they’re bad, but because they don’t fit the Mythic+ meta. This can sometimes result in talents feeling less impactful or meaningful outside of this specific content type.

= Also, It’s not that secrets and treasure maps and puzzles are gone, but they seem to be less of a focus compared to the competitive aspects of the game.

= Covenants are a good example of how difficult it is to balance meaningful choices with gameplay efficiency. While they were intended to offer a meaningful narrative choice, the way they were tied to player power turned them into a burden rather than a feature. What I’m suggesting is that the game could benefit from more choices that impact the narrative and character progression without necessarily being tied to competitive performance. It’s a tough balance, but one worth striving for.

= I’ll definitely take a closer look at WoW Made Easy.

= I completely agree that everyone plays for different reasons, and the variety of content is a strength. My concern is that the prominence of Mythic+ and other competitive content may unintentionally shift the game’s focus away from those narrative elements, making them feel secondary. It’s not that they’re gone, but that they don’t get the same level of attention or engagement from the player base as they might have in a less competition-focused environment.

= The game does offer a lot of content, but when the community and rewards are centered around competitive activities, it can make the other aspects feel less rewarding or relevant. It’s about finding a balance where both types of playstyles are equally supported and encouraged.

= It’s true that the core fantasy of each class is still there, and they do feel different on a basic level. However, when it comes to the finer details—like specific utilities or abilities that used to be more distinct—these differences can feel less pronounced. As classes are balanced more around performing well in Mythic+ scenarios, some of those unique, flavorful elements might get sidelined in favor of efficiency and versatility in that specific content. The differences might still be there, but they’re not as highlighted as they could be.

= I agree that the ladder system is a significant part of the issue, as it drives players toward focusing on Mythic+ as the most efficient way to progress. While I appreciate the content available in the open world and the addition of Delves, they often feel like side activities rather than core parts of the progression. The game is balanced, but it’s tilted heavily towards Mythic+, which can make other content feel less rewarding or important by comparison. I’d love to see more emphasis on making those other activities just as engaging and rewarding as the Mythic+ experience.

Sorry for the huge wall.
I also think I know how to quote next time.

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eye rolls

M+ is fine

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But where are we seeing this? That’s what I’m missing here.

But that’s a player choice. I still can go off and do what I want. And side quests take us off the besten path.

See, and I again disagree here. Because that’s once more a player decision.

The content is there. Each person has to decide for themselves how they want to play.

So many new treasures and secrets were added in DF that I feel differently about that.

I know I’m repeating myself here, but I see all different types of content and different types of gameplay. We’ve gotten more emphasis on open world recently and we’re getting even more. So I still think this is all player dependent.

Hey, you used paragraphs! It’s all good. :slightly_smiling_face:

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I get that it’s hard to pinpoint, but it’s more about the gradual shifts over time. When classes are balanced primarily for Mythic+, some of the unique abilities that don’t fit into that environment might be adjusted or downplayed, which can lead to a subtle but noticeable homogenization. However, I understand that this may not be a universal experience, and it might not be something everyone notices or feels strongly about.

You’re right, it absolutely is a player choice. The game offers a wide variety of content, and we each decide how to engage with it. My concern is more about the overall trend where efficiency becomes the default mode of play for many, potentially overshadowing other content. But I agree that it ultimately comes down to individual playstyle, and the game does provide opportunities for those who seek them.

That’s a fair point. The content is definitely there, and how much time and attention we give to the story is up to each player. I guess what I’m getting at is that the design of Mythic+ and similar content can sometimes steer players away from those slower, more narrative-driven experiences. But again, I understand that it’s all about how each person chooses to engage with the game.

I can see where you’re coming from. Dragonflight did add a lot of treasures and secrets, which is great for players who enjoy that aspect. My worry is more about the broader focus and whether these elements might get overshadowed by the competitive aspects. But clearly, it’s something that varies depending on what each player values most in the game.

It sounds like we’re coming at this from slightly different angles. You’re right that the game does offer a variety of content, and recent expansions have indeed pushed for more open-world experiences. I think it just comes down to personal preference and what each of us prioritizes in our gameplay. I can see why you feel the game is balanced, and I appreciate that perspective. At this point, I think we might just have to agree to disagree on how much Mythic+ impacts the overall focus of the game.

Thank you for not disregarding me because I am a level 10 troll :slight_smile:

Also I learned to quote I think :smiley:

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Agreed with the overall sentiment, though I’m certain people will pick this apart.

I don’t think a vast open world RPG should devolve into people sitting around a capital city queuing for instanced content (they’ve even added portals to the dungeons so you barely have to lift a finger to get there), and every expansion the pendulum continues to shift towards this ultra-fast, “I want every single ability available to me at all times or I will scream,” but that’s just my opinion, and I don’t participate so whatever. It bothers me thought that it permeates other aspects of the game, such as normal, heroic and TW dungeons, which used to be fun, but now are an eyerolling bore.

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