My thoughts on M+ and how it affects / has affected the game

[FaceParty-553062 (FaceParty)]

I guess we were due for another one of these chat gpt copy paste threads.

[Rekt-2853523 (Rekt)]

Thank you for your input. Much appreciated.

[FaceParty-553062 (FaceParty)]

Anytime krogh

[Akston-837933 (Akston)]

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

It was intended to make dungeons more challenging with timers and better rewards but it has become a repetitive cycle where players constantly chase higher keys and higher score. I think this focus to repeatedly running the same dungeons is strongly reducing the game’s overall variety and exploration feel.

As opposed to what? We repeat the same open world and raid activities. Dungeons were left behind. Why is it bad, specifically, to repeat dungeons?

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Timed dungeons create high pressure, where a single mistake can ruin the entire run and this pressure often leads to emotional outbursts, blame-shifting, and a toxic atmosphere, especially considering that many players spend more time looking / forming a group than actually in the dungeons. In essence, fun and camaraderie are replaced by anxiety and resentment. Exceptions prove the rule.

A single mistake ruining an entire run is the exception. Rarely a single mistake will do that.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Everything is about the competitive aspect these days. I mean, you can say all you want that “noone is forcing you to play this class or this build” but this is a social game and peer pressure is a thing

I dont get how this is a point. How is that different than any other end game pillar?

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Mythic+ becoming the pillar of endgame that it is has taken resources from creating new and immersive RPG content. Development efforts go into refining dungeons and their endless grind, making the game feel smaller and more repetitive.

Ok. What new and immersive RPG content have we left behind due to m+?

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

M+ mode has shifted the focus of World of Warcraft, leading to a homogenization of gameplay and class roles. Builder-spender, mobility creep, almost everyone having 3 defensives and demanding to have all the tools for every situation etc. Where is the RPG?Classes are now balanced around their performance in these timed runs, which diminishes their unique traits and lore-based abilities and this trend flattens the game’s diversity, reducing classes to similar tools for completing dungeons quickly, rather than stressing their distinct identity and playstyle.

I would need you to expand on this, because it do not see how every class plays the same.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

The emphasis on Mythic dungeon mode leads developers to prioritize balance and mechanics for these dungeons over innovative and immersive content. Quests, lore, and world-building that don’t fit the Mythic+ framework often get side-lined, resulting in underdeveloped or ignored RPG potential. This focus shift means the game is losing its sense of adventure and discovery, which are central to a great RPG experience. The world becomes a backdrop for timed challenges rather than a place to explore and enjoy, undermining Blizzard’s strength in storytelling and atmosphere.

But we still have quests, lore, world building even with m+.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

The joy of gradually growing stronger through various in-game activities is replaced by a repetitive gear-grinding routine that feels incredibly curated with the upgrade system now. The broader sense of growth and achievement from exploring different aspects of the game is diminished.

WoW has always had a repetitive gear grinding routine.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Mythics dominance is leading World of Warcraft to be defined by a single content type. This narrow focus limits th room for creative risks and rich storytelling, which are key to making an RPG epic. Azeroth should offer epic tales and diverse gameplay experiences, not just a series of timed trials.

…what?

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

I realize that Mythic+ is here to stay but I just wanted to express my thoughts and I hope it will help spark a discussion. I know there are probably segments in the post that someone could short-quote and have their “gotcha!” moment but I hope the overall point I am making is clear.

Thank you!

Your thoughts seem rooted in buzzwords, while not actually looking at reality.

You express concern about doing content repeatedly, despite the fact it has been a staple of WoW (and all MMOs) since day 1.

You express concern that due to WoW having m+, it is taking resources away from RPG, world content, etc. Despite World Content growing compared to any other point in WoW’s history.

You express concern about balance, and that somehow balance is bad.

You express concern that all specs within their roles are being homogenized, citing “builder spender”. Despite the fact all specs within roles were already like this. All specs are homogenized if you are vague enough. And the only way you can state they are homogenized due to M+ is if you are incredibly vague.

Basically, you just seem to have a point based on ignoring how WoW has always been.

[Nighthawk-67341 (Nighthawk)]

With how they are changing affixes, Blizzard pretty much is telling us that folks who want the fun affixes can go up to 11s, then 12s and over will have the real unfun affixes.

The last 4 expansions, I usually pushed to +22s or +12s after the change. Going any higher than that, and I no longer find keys fun. With the affix changes, it only cements my choice of wanting to go to 11s and then calling it done.

Overall, this will create more of a division between players vaulting or playing for fun and more hardcore mythic+ players in the 12 and over bracket.

One thing that I have found surprising is that Blizzard doesn’t seem to make any dungeons that won’t be used in mythic plus. Maybe Blizzard should have 1-2 dungeons every expac that are there just for the regular experience that aren’t ever going to be converted into mythic plus?

[Akston-837933 (Akston)]

@Phoenix-fizzcrank

This will create more of a division between players vaulting or playing for fun and more hardcore mythic+ players in the 12 and over bracket. In it’s own way, I think we will see a bulk of players in 10s and under while you have a very small amount of players going on for title or cutting edge keys… Like it’s always been, just more decisive.

I dont see it being any more decisive than it is now.

Right now, most people stop at 10s.

@Phoenix-fizzcrank

The last 4ish expansions, I’ve pugged 80% of my keys and have grown to enjoy pugging. I never pushed high keys, maxing out at +22 or +12s after the change. Going any higher than that, and I feel like I’m back in low keys were people rage quit for the smallest reason and that’s not for me.

So nothing changes?

@Phoenix-fizzcrank

One thing that I have found surprising is that Blizzard doesn’t seem to make any dungeons anymore that won’t be used in mythic plus. Maybe Blizzard should have 1-2 dungeons every expac that are there just for the regular experience that aren’t ever going to be converted into mythic plus?

Why would they make a dungeon that they intend to barely get used?

[Ventorath-829503 (Ventorath)]

I think you overstate the effect M+ has had on the development of other forms of content. Blizzard doesn’t even create more content for dungeons than they did prior to Mythic+. It’s all system stuff and definitely isn’t biting into their work creating quests / story or even raids.

That said, it’s undeniable that it has become THE endgame content pillar. It doesn’t matter what else you want to do, it’s going to be by far the most efficient type of content to partiicpate in to gear up for the other stuff. It’s been way too lucrative since at least BfA, but it has a super high participation rate (partly BECAUSE of this), so Blizzard will probably never do anything to try and balance it out better.

Which ends up making other content (mostly raiding in this case) feel largely pointless, if you’re not playing at the very top level.

M+ is great at making dungeon content stay relevant. There was a long time there where dungeons were a dev resource sink that just didn’t matter after 2-3 weeks into an expansion because they were just a stepping stone to raiding. M+ fixed that.

But I don’t think they iterated on its reward scheme enough when it was new to make it fit in correctly. They dropped it in and basically just left it alone, which ended up shifting the game from ‘raid or die’ directly into ‘dungeon or die’, and neither is a good thing.

[Rekt-2853523 (Rekt)]

I think there’s a bit of a mix-up in what I’m saying. I’m not against change or saying WoW was perfect before. It’s more about how the game’s focus has imo shifted and what that means for players who enjoy different things.

Yeah, repetition is part of WoW, always has been. But what bugs me is how the focus on Mythic+ makes that repetition feel more narrow. It’s not the same as when we had more variety in what we were doing. The grind in Mythic+ just feels different, like it’s more of a chore than an adventure.

Also I’m NOT saying there’s no world content. I see it, but I wonder if it’s as deep or engaging as it could be. When so much attention goes to Mythic+ and competitive stuff, it feels like the other parts of the game dont get as much love. It’s more about whether the quality and depth of that content are keeping up.

Balance isn’t a problem. What I’m talking about is how balance seems to be more about fitting classes into Mythic+ and that competitive scene. Sometimes it feels like this comes at the cost of class identity or the fun, unique stuff that made each class stand out and so on. Having mythic+ be so important a tenet of the game… it’s just that these changes can make classes feel a bit more… samey.

And sure, roles have always had some similarities, but it seems like Mythic+ has sped this up. When classes are tweaked to fit into Mythic+, some of the cool and unique aspects might get lost along the way. It’s more about efficiency now, which isn’t always a bad thing, but it does change how classes feel to play.

And finally, I’m not ignoring WoW’s past: I’m just thinking about how it’s changing. WoW used to balance different types of content, raids, quests, exploration, all that good stuff. My worry is that it’s leaning too much toward competitive content, and that might make the game less enjoyable for people who loved the broader RPG elements.

I’m not stuck in the past or anything, just trying to figure out where the game’s heading and how it affects different players. We all enjoy WoW in our own ways, and it’s worth talking about how these changes are playing out for everyone.

[Akston-837933 (Akston)]

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

I think there’s a bit of a mix-up in what I’m saying. I’m not against change or saying WoW was perfect before. It’s more about how the game’s focus has imo shifted and what that means for players who enjoy different things.

Its only shifted to also include m+.

There are still raids. There is still world content. There is still the same quality in story telling.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Yeah, repetition is part of WoW, always has been. But what bugs me is how the focus on Mythic+ makes that repetition feel more narrow. It’s not the same as when we had more variety in what we were doing. The grind in Mythic+ just feels different, like it’s more of a chore than an adventure.

And there are raids you repeat.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Also I’m NOT saying there’s no world content. I see it, but I wonder if it’s as deep or engaging as it could be. When so much attention goes to Mythic+ and competitive stuff, it feels like the other parts of the game dont get as much love. It’s more about whether the quality and depth of that content are keeping up.

Can you give an an example of deep and engaging world content we had a plethora of before m+ existed?

WoD, WotLK, TBC…I dont see something there that stands out as deep and engaging in a way we dont have now. What content is missing the love that m+ took away?

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Balance isn’t a problem. What I’m talking about is how balance seems to be more about fitting classes into Mythic+ and that competitive scene. Sometimes it feels like this comes at the cost of class identity or the fun, unique stuff that made each class stand out and so on. Having mythic+ be so important a tenet of the game… it’s just that these changes can make classes feel a bit more… samey.

Balance is about fitting roles into raiding, pvp, m+. There is definitely balance that looks at all 3 of those.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

And sure, roles have always had some similarities, but it seems like Mythic+ has sped this up. When classes are tweaked to fit into Mythic+, some of the cool and unique aspects might get lost along the way. It’s more about efficiency now, which isn’t always a bad thing, but it does change how classes feel to play.

I dont see how this didnt also happen before m+.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

And finally, I’m not ignoring WoW’s past: I’m just thinking about how it’s changing. WoW used to balance different types of content, raids, quests, exploration, all that good stuff. My worry is that it’s leaning too much toward competitive content, and that might make the game less enjoyable for people who loved the broader RPG elements.

But that other content still exists. It didnt go anywhere. I cant even see how its had less focus, other than maybe raiding. And that would be that competitive content you are saying get too much attention.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

I’m not stuck in the past or anything, just trying to figure out where the game’s heading and how it affects different players. We all enjoy WoW in our own ways, and it’s worth talking about how these changes are playing out for everyone.

I dont think you are stuck in the past. I think you are ignoring the past.

The past had repetitive content for gearing. The past had classes playing in vague similar ways. The past had similar world content, questing, etc.

I dont see a decline in any of the non competitive forms of content because exists. If anything, WoW has been giving us more and more non competitive forms of content.

[Life-dark-iron]

Without M+, most of my friends and I would probably not play anymore. By the end of WoD, everyone in my social circle had either quit playing or only raid logged.

M+ added meaningful small-group content that is relatively ever green, and I feel it was the best thing to happen to the game from the perspective of longevity.

[Rekt-2853523 (Rekt)]

I am not advocating for its removal, I too participate in M+ and often enjoy it as part of our social gatherings, and I think we are at a point where anyone that thinks or hopes m+ will be removed is flat-out naive.

My goal here was to express my concerns about how the focus on m+ has led to disregarding other aspects of the game.

[MrCute512-6800 (MrCute512)]

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

I think this focus to repeatedly running the same dungeons is strongly reducing the game’s overall variety and exploration feel.

It was using the same formula as before… repeatedly doing Dungeons/Heroic Dungeons until your gear is Raid Ready. Now, you have an option to skip Raid and just do Dungeons only. It didnt delete Raiding. It is still there for you.

Same thing with Raid, you do it repeatedly until you beat the last Boss. Everything is done repeatedly. If this is not your taste, you must be in a wrong game. But you can still enjoy WoW without dungeons and Raid but you would easily run out of things to do.

[Akston-837933 (Akston)]

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

My goal here was to express my concerns about how the focus on m+ has led to disregarding other aspects of the game.

But it hasn’t.

Outside of…at most…raiding. Which would be that competitive aspect focus you dont like.

[Dungledork-area-52]

Reading your post, you just do not like mythic+ as content. And as you asked others to reply to your post in a specific way, rather than an attempt to dismantle your post, is a little off-putting. Before I do that, I am going to respectfully disagree with you on most of your points. And now I am going to respond to your numbered sections in kind.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

I think this focus to repeatedly running the same dungeons is strongly reducing the game’s overall variety and exploration feel.

Even if M+ did not exist. Going back to before legion, we did run the content repeatedly. We ran it until we got all the gear we needed out of it. Then we never ran it again. And for reducing the overall variety in exploration feel, once you explore an area, do the quests and finish the story, there isnt really replay value there.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Timed dungeons create high pressure, where a single mistake can ruin the entire run and this pressure often leads to emotional outbursts, blame-shifting, and a toxic atmosphere, especially considering that many players spend more time looking / forming a group than actually in the dungeons.

Yes. I agree with this.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Everything is about the competitive aspect these days.

I wouldnt say everything is competitive. But, information is shared instantly via discords, WoWhead and other areas. Chasing the meta is currently the trend in all modern gaming. And that I feel takes away more than it adds.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Mythic+ becoming the pillar of endgame that it is has taken resources from creating new and immersive RPG content. Development efforts go into refining dungeons and their endless grind, making the game feel smaller and more repetitive.

Objectively wrong. They have continually added repeatable, progression based, solo friendly world content. They have iterated on Visions, Torghast, the Vault, now Delves. They continually add world events. Each zone is packed with quest chains and things to do. Treasures to hunt. Reps to grind. If anything they put out fewer M+ dungeons each expansion than they have in the past. If you have any evidential proof of this aside from your opinion, please link or post.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

M+ mode has shifted the focus of World of Warcraft, leading to a homogenization of gameplay and class roles. Builder-spender, mobility creep, almost everyone having 3 defensives and demanding to have all the tools for every situation etc. Where is the RPG?Classes are now balanced around their performance in these timed runs, which diminishes their unique traits and lore-based abilities and this trend flattens the game’s diversity, reducing classes to similar tools for completing dungeons quickly, rather than stressing their distinct identity and playstyle.

Classes are more diverse than they have been. The issue is that not all classes are built equally. Some have strengths in certain areas. Others do not. And when playing the game at a high level, those differences become larger. So people gravitate to playing what is currently the strongest classes. If anything the issue is that the game is near impossible to tune well, due to the sheer variety in how classes perform their roles in different content.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

The emphasis on Mythic dungeon mode leads developers to prioritize balance and mechanics for these dungeons over innovative and immersive content. Quests, lore, and world-building that don’t fit the Mythic+ framework often get side-lined, resulting in underdeveloped or ignored RPG potential.

Objectively wrong. They have added more interesting and engaging content outside of M+ and raids than ever. The problem with this quest/lore/world building, content, is that once it is done once, then the reason to do it again diminishes. Doing the quests through on your first toon each expansion is fun. It is a little less fun on your second. And by 3rd or 4th character, you want a way to quickly skip past it.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

This focus shift means the game is losing its sense of adventure and discovery, which are central to a great RPG experience. The world becomes a backdrop for timed challenges rather than a place to explore and enjoy, undermining Blizzard’s strength in storytelling and atmosphere.

Again. MMORPGs are a different game than a standard RPG. In normal RPGs you do a playthrough. Then another playthrough and make different choices. And the games have a start, middle and end, before you play again. There is no need for progression at endgame in standard RPGs, because at endgame, the game ends.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

The joy of gradually growing stronger through various in-game activities is replaced by a repetitive gear-grinding routine that feels incredibly curated with the upgrade system now. The broader sense of growth and achievement from exploring different aspects of the game is diminished.

Again. You grow stronger through leveling and questing. Then at max level you run dungeons and raids for gear to get stronger. You want to grow stronger for completing dragon riding races? Or collecting 20 scales from dragonkin at endgame? There is a sea of world content at endgame that offers gear and character progression, that is not M+ or raids.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

Mythics dominance is leading World of Warcraft to be defined by a single content type. This narrow focus limits th room for creative risks and rich storytelling, which are key to making an RPG epic. Azeroth should offer epic tales and diverse gameplay experiences, not just a series of timed trials.

Are you asking for them to constantly release quest content and new world zones each patch? Each with its own story, factions, quest hubs, world quests, world events, rare spawns to kill, mounts to farm, cosmetics to gain?

Because that is what they do each patch. They do not create new M+ dungeons each patch. They have been adding One large dungeon mid/late expansion. But, they continually add more story and quests and zones. That type of content takes time and resources to make. As do raids.

So each patch, they release a new Raid. Which is the culmination of all of the questing, lore and story content of the new zone.

In summation they really do give you what you are asking for every patch. They consistently iterate on those aspects of the game, and release new content for those aspects of the game at a faster and more frequent cadence than they do for M+ dungeons. The problem is, that once you play through it once. Every time after that is diminished, because you have already done it once before.

[ArgentumEMP-2010746 (ArgentumEMP)]

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

My goal here was to express my concerns about how the focus on m+ has led to disregarding other aspects of the game.

If that was your concern then I can help you ease your thoughts about that:
It hasn’t.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

---

Sorry but most of the things you have said is just categorically not true, rooted in purely the use of buzzwords, and there’s nothing about this post that lends itself any credence that it is done in good faith. Because overwhelmingly the things you mentioned are things ONLY said by folks who have made it their entire personality to hate M+ on an irrational level and have never ever done or participated in it.

So no. Just flat out no to neigh on everything you mentioned as it is just simply categorically false, irrelevant, or providing some weird idea that “people have fun therefore it is bad.” As per the usual nonsense regarding “competitiveness”, “toxicity”, “timers”, and even a categorical misunderstanding of what “RPG” means in terms of games.

[Rekt-2853523 (Rekt)]

It seems you feel pretty strongly about this, Shadybolt, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond, but I think we’re just seeing things differently here. I’ve played a lot of WoW over the years, and it’s not like I’m out here trying to hate on Mythic+ for no reason. It’s more about how the game has evolved and how that’s affected different parts of the experience.

I’m not just throwing around buzzwords to sound fancy. I’m sharing how things feel from my perspective and what I’ve noticed over time. We all have our own experiences with the game, and just because mine don’t line up with yours doesn’t mean they’re not valid.

I also don’t hate M+ or the people who enjoy it. I’ve done it myself, and I get why people like it. My issue is more with how the focus on this type of content might be shifting the overall balance of the game. It’s about wanting WoW to keep offering a wide range of experiences, not just focusing on one.

When I talk about competitiveness or the RPG elements, it’s not because I don’t understand them. It’s because I’ve seen how the game has changed and how some of the things I used to love, like exploration or unique class identities, feel a bit different now. It’s not about saying “people having fun is bad” but more about how the game can keep its roots while still evolving.

I think at the end of the day we’re coming from different places on this. You’re obviously really into the competitive side and that’s awesome if that’s what you enjoy. But for me, and probably hundreds of thousands others (at least), there’s just a concern about how these changes might impact the broader experience.

So, I respect your passion for the game, but I’m just coming at it from another angle. We might not agree, but that’s okay. Everyone’s got their own take on what makes WoW great, and it’s cool to have these kinds of discussions. I would be happy to reply to you again.

[Akston-837933 (Akston)]

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

It’s more about how the game has evolved and how that’s affected different parts of the experience.

Can you give examples on how different parts of the experience has been effected?

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

My issue is more with how the focus on this type of content might be shifting the overall balance of the game. It’s about wanting WoW to keep offering a wide range of experiences, not just focusing on one.

WoW is literally adding in Delves.

Its not taking the primary focus. We still have raids, open world content, etc.

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

I think at the end of the day we’re coming from different places on this. You’re obviously really into the competitive side and that’s awesome if that’s what you enjoy. But for me, and probably hundreds of thousands others (at least), there’s just a concern about how these changes might impact the broader experience.

But they arent?

@Cheekwipe-moon-guard

So, I respect your passion for the game, but I’m just coming at it from another angle. We might not agree, but that’s okay. Everyone’s got their own take on what makes WoW great, and it’s cool to have these kinds of discussions. I would be happy to reply to you again.

Your angle seems to not exist.

DF probably had more open world content and events created than probably any expansion before it? With TWW having even more non m+ content than before.

[Pulemy-windseeker]

1. The repetition of dungeons was already a thing, especially after WOTLK with heroic dungeons. IMO Mythic+ was actually designed to make dungeon spamming more fun by adding a progressive system and affixes.

2. It’s a competitive game mode. Like ranked pvp it’s, by it’s nature, always going to be stressful. I think a part of mastering dungeons has always been doing them faster, and Mythic+ is all about mastering dungeons. (the time can be adjusted, but it will probably always feel competitive.)

3. Pressure to conform to certain builds existed in raiding as well. There ARE ways to mitigate this, but removing M+ isn’t the way.

4. I don’t think RP in games is as popular as some MMO fans wish it was. (in the sense of weddings, player housing, stuff like that.)

5. Very very true. Big true.

6. How is it Mythic+ fault that leveling sucks? I agree it sucks worse now than it ever has. But that’s because they delusionally believe people enjoy leveling as it is. No other reason.

7. This hasn’t existed since TBC/Vanilla. And doesn’t even really work properly in classic versions of those games.

8. Leveling and PVP can be improved without hurting M+. The only thing that M+ directly competes with is high end raiding. And I personally think that high end raiding should go the way of the dodo bird.

I think Mythic+ is one of the best systems in WoW. It could be improved. But overall it’s popular and allows blizzard to create many hours of content efficiently.

[Pulemy-windseeker]

Classes are more diverse than they have been.

Man this is just objectively not true. Classes are absolutely being designed with M+ in mind. Which is why PvP is now filled with every class doing aoe. Because if a class doesn’t do aoe in M+ it’s not viable.

I don’t agree with all of OPs point. But this one is true.

[Akston-837933 (Akston)]

@Pulemy-windseeker

Classes are absolutely being designed with M+ in mind.

They are also being designed with raiding and pvp in mind.

Whereas before they were only being designed with raiding and pvp in mind.

Classes are still very diverse in gameplay.