I dont think you understand how big a buff that would need to be. If you compensate buff anything other mutilate, people will still just play saber slash and do even more dps. You would therefore need to buff mutilate damage by 75-100%, yes seriously, to offset the energy nerf. Can you imagine the pvp tears about getting crit by mutilate for all their hp while in cheap shot?
Here’s a simple solution, leave mutilate alone. Rogues dont need nerfs at all. If saber slash needs a small adjustment in damage to bring it closer to mutilate builds then that is far better tuning lever.
With keeping the carnage rune, I think the 5stack saberslash was perfectly on point. The issue was, Saberslash not being 40 energy, similar to mutilate. With the Sinister strike energy talent, you could spec saberslash down to 35 energy. At that point, regardless of the lower combo points, youll even out with damage once stacks start rolling.
Don’t agree. Your approach is short sighted and doesn’t consider other options. For example you could buff mutilate to increase the percent chance poisons are applied. You could also have it buffed to apply additional attack power to poisons. Neither of those are straight damage and both will scale with additional levels. Both can also be tweaked to match the desired output. Finally, neither is particularly overpowered in pvp.
Weren’t you justifying that mutilate needed to be 60 energy because it was like that in every other version of wow and then you propose other mechanical changes that have never been done? You seem to lack consistency.
That being said, those are fair options to compensate buff mutilate. But I ask you, what does this change? Depending on the tuning there will still be a builder, SS or mut, that is better. Putting more emphasis on poisons through mutilate just further locks out deep combat as a viable talent build because you need those poison talents in the assassination tree. You’re still never touching backstab if mutilate is proccing poison applications as well. I like that you felt all confident calling me short-sighted when you didn’t seem to realize that your proposed compensation buffs are antithetical to everything you’ve been preaching.
Just leave mutilate alone because it objectively isn’t OP at all. As I’ve said numerous times now, there will always be a single best cp builder unless they add runes that add conditional power to other abilities. For example, BS in execute phase or Shadow Dance.
Will you finally learn the lesson people have been trying to teach you for months or will you stubbornly insist on being wrong?
Nah. I have consistently said it is too strong at 40. It being 60 in the other versions is evidence for that. It isn’t the ONLY evidence for that, but it is a clear indication that the designers for over a decade have recognized 40 is too low.
This isn’t accurate. It is very possible to tune both along with expected builds to see what average and max output is for both in given fight times, scenarios, etc. Shoot, Simon has done it…you trying to tell me blizzard can’t with access to more accurate data? Get outta here.
Yeah, except you ignored the fact that in classic both backstab and sinister strike were viable builders throughout the game. The difference between combat daggers and combat swords was negligible. Mutilate and saber slash can be tuned to make it even better so there are potentially 2 different trees that can be used in addition to 2 different builders.
Feel free to mention this other evidence at some point.
Yes, it is. While SS and Mut are close enough (within 10% according to Simon) that you can play what you want, Mut still has higher potential. Blizz had never been successful at making two specs for a class identical in potential and it isn’t an easy task. There will always be a build that is simply stronger. Besides your crusade to reduce the energy cost to 60 will nerf mutilate builds to be far lower than SS. It will not be anywhere close to even. With the builds as close as they are now, why bother doing it that way when you can give SS ap ratios a bump if needed? Orc brains, i swear.
Swords had a higer pve potential than daggers, but rogues could go daggers and do almost as much while not competing for as many weapon drops. It wasn’t a negligible difference.
The goal has been stated repeatedly. Feel free to go back and educate yourself.
Back up my claim that SS and BS were essentially interchangeable? Easy. The number 1 overall rogue on Kelthuzad in Classic used sinister strike. The number 2 overall rogue used backstab. #3 backstab. #4 sinister strike.
Any other garbage claims you want to peddle real quick?
Oh, and for kicks and giggles: #1 on Naxx boss encounters as a whole was sinister strike. #2 was backstab.
You’ve stated your goal was to nerf the energy cost and give compensation buffs. To what end? You’ve not shown why mutilate needs a nerf other than because you say so. Why should anyone do what your orc brain suggests without reason. If you could actually show me a metric where mutilate is overperforming then I would be willing to listen, but you dont seem to believe in data.
I guess I should have known orc brain would pick an outlying data point and use it as justification. Go down that list and compare how many swords users there are vs daggers. Hint: the swords outnumber the daggers by a fair margin.
You’re like the guy arguing that because one warrior cheeses his way to 3k dps on a fight that means all warriors will realistically do that kind of damage and should be gutted.
I have stated repeatedly that Mutilate at 40 energy stunts the ability for the class designers to effectively design alternative ways to dps with the class. That has been shown by the fact that they buffed Saber Slash a ton and it is still 10% behind mutilate builds (and that’s me taking your word for it that it is that close). The goal isn’t to nerf mutilate. The goal is to make it so they don’t have to work around Mutilate having very limited drawbacks at 40 energy. There are alternate ways to buff mutilate that don’t require it to be easily the best combo generator + 2nd best direct damage output rogue skill in the game.
I will take this further. The way the devs have designed both mutilate and saber slash also limits the ways they are going to be willing to design dungeons going forward. Gnomer was rough because of high armor mobs, but it didn’t have any boss fights where the boss was immune to bleed / poison effects (P1’s first boss was immune to both). This might be mitigated by the fact that we have dual spec now which will allow us to swap into a sinister strike / backstab heavy white damage build, but here is me betting they won’t make that choice.
Yeah. 9 of the top 25 using daggers is a real outlier. You are boring me now.
Of course they wont make those abilities shine. We got two new builders in SoD, why would they want to make sinister strike and backstab our builders of choice?!
So all the work on mutilate when they could just buff saber slash a bit? Hmmm, do a bunch of mechanical reworks and retuning or some small number increases to achieve the same goal? I wonder what makes more sense.
So the ratio of swords to daggers is 2:1. That’s quite the difference lol. Orc brain tries to think. Orc gets bored and needs nap.
Reading. Not a strength for you. I am not asking for buffs to BS / SS. They already have the BS buff in the game in the form of slaughter from the shadows. They just need to move the slot from chest to gloves. That would make it potentially useful outside of fights where the boss is immune to poison / bleed. It might not. Point is, it doesn’t need a buff. It just needs to be accessible to be used with Deadly Brew.
This is an experimental version of the game. It makes more sense to rework mutilate to see what you can get away with while still keeping the class balanced.
And yet the dps gap is negligible. Seriously. #yawn
Irony. Neither was I. Nothing needs to be done to make those abilities accessible because with two new builders from runes, Sinister and Backstab are dead. I’d take deadly brew being baseline, but it’s not at all important. You keep changing your point. Make up your mind about what you’re actually looking for. I get that you’re just moving goalposts, but can you just accept that your opinions are wrong and move on?
I doubt we will see bleed/poison immune bosses in the future if we didnt see them in gnomer of all places.
Still struggling bud. You were suggesting that I was asking for buffs to one of them. Reread your own statement.
Goalposts remain the same. Your ability to comprehend nuance is obviously poor.
Insert sarcastic comment here.
My opinion is correct. It hasn’t changed. You have done less to change my opinion than others have in this thread.
I am glad you were able to prove that the damage difference between BS and SS in classic was negligible and that your entire premise for “one has always been supreme” is hot garbage. Later.
Honestly, I dont even care to because you’re not here for honest discussion. I put in the effort in the previous thread and went through all the numbers to back up my stance despite you not providing anything of substance.