Yes retail is another version of WoW that exists.
Do you have an actual argument for not matching premades vs other premades?
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WSG was designed for group play. If you want to solo, go to Eastern plague
“WSG was designed for group play. If you want to solo, go to Eastern plague”
When you join, even as solo, you are placed in “group” play. The difference is your group is random. Premades are select characters filling slot positions in order to min max and farm honor. So its random group vs elite group. Hence we need premade vs premade. The only reason not to do this is because sweaty players want to farm honor as fast and efficient as possible at the expense of people wanting to enjoy the game casually.
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I’m ok with this… 
How about No? Really this is again how many times does this need to be said?
There are two aspects of this game. One is the PVE environment and one if the PVP environment. There are many people who can go in and PUG MC and Onyxia. But lets see that purely random Pug in AQ or Naxx. It does not work. People put time and effort into forming a good group.
Why would there be a difference in PVP. Yes you can go in a Pug. And you will get the same results as going in with random people into Naxx. Slaughtered.
Go find a group of like minded people who want to PVP and show that you can add value.
If you want to enjoy the game casually you should be okay with a little less honor, shouldn’t you?
If we separate the queues, why not giving premades a Honor boost since they’re going through all the trouble to set up comms, recruit and log in at the same time? If you don’t give premades a Honor boost they will just disappear, and you know that. MMORPG players like to be rewarded for going the extra mile.
that’s called ranked BG and they are on retail.
Alliance premade send a scout in WSG before zoning in. if it’s a horde premade they dodge the queue ( and get another scout ready), if it’s a pug they go in. it’s just more honor-efficient to rolfstomp pug all day long.
this means those game get backfilled by alliance pugs… again, and again, and again.
Don’t you love how the alliance PvP’er screwed you over during AV with their premade, and are now doing it again in WSG?
I do not think there should be a reward advantage for toxic behavior. So no.
Why are premades “toxic behavior”? They go into a battleground, they win it, they go out. They don’t dodge queues and the option for premades is built into the game itself.
It leaves, however, pugs in a bad situation, which could warrant separating the queues. But if you DO separate the queues then you NEED to give premades an extra incentive for existing, or they will stop being set up. Do you just want premades to end?
Battlegrounds should be PuG only. The queue system was intended to be more of a random/first-come, first-serve system.
Want organized PvP?
Retail ------>
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It would not break my heart at all if they ended. You want to take away peoples ability to have fair chance at honor because you are scared that there will be less of an honor gain per your min max sweaty poopsock hour. Sorry, I could give a rats patootie about that. Fair is fair however so do not restrict me because I want to play the game as intended and you want to min max game the system.
I am not a PvPer lol. I have never done a WSG premade and I constantly lose to premades when I’m bored and queue up.
“Fair is fair however so do not restrict me because I want to play the game as intended and you want to min max game the system.”
What you need to understand is that premades curb-stomping pugs is the quintessential Vanilla experience. You could go days without winning a match, facing only your server’s best premades over and over again. This happened for literal years back then, and Blizzard didn’t see it as a problem and allowed it to continue.
“You want to take away peoples ability to have fair chance at honor because you are scared that there will be less of an honor gain per your min max sweaty poopsock hour”
Maybe the difference between solo play honor and organized PvP honor shouldn’t be as stark as it is right now, but it MUST exist, and I am trying to get you to agree to a possible measure that reduces that difference without eliminating it. Just as you will gear more slowly if you only pug raids instead of having an organized guild, you will get less honor if you you pug battleground. That is fair.
Nobody wants to “take away your fair chance at honor” because, historically, your “fair chance” never existed. Organized play has, since the beginning of the game, yielded better results than pug pvp. Sweaty 2500-rated players will get the 4.1 speed multiplier mount in TBC, sweaty raiders will do split Black Temple runs and that is FINE. It is an MMORPG, not everything is for everybody.
How are they still doing this? I was under the impression the change made to hide the other team until the match starts prevented queue dodging.
The queue system was clearly intended for premades stomping pugs because that’s all that ever happened in Vanilla. The only way to win WSG games was to make your own premade.
You can argue about the quality of game design in this situation, as I don’t think it is fun for any of the participants, but you can’t argue about intent - for years premades stomped pugs endlessly and Blizzard was more than fine with it.
Although there where premades, it was not to the extent it is today. Not even close. I think for the health of the game and the people playing the game for fun, not making a job of it, that we have to restrict premade to premade. Except for rankers, there is no enjoyment at all, zero, of getting steamrolled by a team of hand picked roles that are put together for this exact behavior. It toxic and makes people not want to play.
Ya, I am not buying it. Its a problem that the premades made for themselves by min/maxing. Now you want to be upset because you feel entitled to more honor per hour because you formed a group in discord that is designed to steamroll. You do not care about the other players, just rank and min max. See this is why its toxic. Why can you not see that? Its because you are blinded by the toxic behavior. Bloodlust or whatever you want to call it, but this kind of behavior in my opinion should not be rewarded.
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only 1 alliance zone in, see a full 10-man on the other end. deduce it’s a premade by how quick they all joined ( or when they see 5 rank 10+… that’s also a pretty good clue).
I have beaten pugs as a random group thats the best feeling knowing that they lost o a bunch of randoms. Most premades are just 7-10 random people from their server. It is ok we all have some losses from PvP. Tis the way it is.
I wouldn’t say they are inherently Toxic, but the way they are used now to stomp Pugs all day to maximize HPH is toxic to the players on the other end who just want to queue up and PvP in a somewhat balanced game, not one where they achieve zero kills and zero honor.
Premades don’t need any extra incentive, that’s what retail and rated BGs already provides. The incentive to form a premade is to be able to play together with friends/guildies, not so that you can achieve the maximum HPH by stomping PUGS in a non-competitive BG match.
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I have never participated in a WSG premade in Classic. I have, however, done small amounts of organized PvP in retail and as a (former) raider I appreciate the work that goes into making a stable group, getting everyone to log in at the same time, getting better over time and being rewarded for it. It is fun.
But fun only carries you so far in an MMORPG, and it has been proven that, more than anything, players respond to incentives. The goal is to make players have fun WHILE on a relatively efficient path. I don’t think anyone really likes that the only way to get more honor than pugs is to curb-stomp them for hours. The premades don’t like it and the pugs HATE it. But premades really like working for better honor/hour and achieving it, so an alternate path to do that must be given if you’re taking the premade/pug stomps away. Do you think it is unfair that people who only ever pug raids gear much more slowly than people on guilds?